“Many of the stories involve Callie, and all of them involve heavy themes of romance. Particularly the other three quadrants which are completely alien to you, and therefore especially titillating.
So, in addition to Matespritship there are at least two other forms of troll romance that cherubs do not naturally perform. Since uu later mentions caliginous feelings people jumped to the conclusion that one quadrant they do understand is kismesissitude. However, there is one other quadrant that is caliginous: Auspisticism .
That’s right, the ashen quadrant. The quadrant everyone always forgets about, the quadrant no one writes fanfictions for. That’s the only form of romance cherubs have. It’s a little different from the troll version (and not platonic, obviously) but it’s close enough that cherubs are able to naturally understand it.
Maaaaaybe? I guess I can't definitively refute you, but I think it’s pretty clear they meant kismessitude, and it’s the only option that makes any workable sort of sense:
UU: we are not a social race. we generally will not ever encoUnter another of oUr kind, Unless it is time to mate. UU: and when that time comes, oUr coUrtship is nothing like it is for hUmans. UU: it is highly confrontational and violent. TG: sounds so lonely TG: plus w/ hecks of tricky sex UU: it is lonely. UU: bUt that is in oUr natUre, to be alone. jUst as it is to find attraction throUgh contempt.
Unless you’re saying that their ashen quadrants are reproductively necessary as opposed to trolls, and that three cherubs have to meet for any sort of courtship?? Because that doesn’t make much sense at all.
Cherubs can’t have straight up kismesissitudes because even though they have hate based romantic feelings a big part of that relationship involves not murdering the other person. Two cherubs who hate each other would never not murder one another under normal circumstances. They need a third party to come between them and mediate so they can stay calm/alive long enough to mate. This is the only way they can reproduce.
Yeah, not buying this theory. UU never expressed any desire to kill uu until it was absolutely necessary, and while uu sometimes accused her sister of harboring romantic hatred for him, he has continually treated his own murderous inclinations as platonic hatred. (Not that it isn’t romantic hatred in actuality, or doesn’t have that underlying it. We can’t tell.)
Furthermore, who says the relationship doesn’t involve murdering the other person, for cherubs? Cherubs might eat their mates, for instance. Just as an example.
I spend to much time thinking about alien romance.
pretty sure this is in ~5 billion years in the future earth in the alpha session
it looks like either a desert or what would come about from the sun going red giant on a planet and evaporating the all the water which is basically a desert
No, it’s not alpha session’s Earth. That entire timeline’s universe will have been destroyed by Jack’s Red Miles imminently. Both the Sun and Earth destroyed, and the fabric of space-time around it soon after.
However:
It could be another instance entirely, also within their universe. Doomed, perhaps, as Kanaya insinuated the bad luck sourced thereof. Or, it could be A1, the pre-Scratch trolls’ universe long after their race has been destroyed by Sgrub, pelted to death by meteors ages ago and their sun swelling as its life begins to end.
at some even later point the cherub(s) took up residence/were forced to live there there a la the exiles
What makes you think they weren’t created there?
It is an ectobiology lab, after all. And somebody managed to make all those chains and devices for them, so old and purpose/making so unfathomable to the pair of cherubs that they’ve plastered it all with the label “juju magic” and used it their whole lives without explanation.
As I’ve said before, maybe this is what happens when you try to ectobiologize human/troll hybrids. (And if Gamzee were the culprit (as the left behind tome insinuates), he also has Cal, a valid DNA source.)
Or, it could be A1, the pre-Scratch trolls’ universe long after their race has been destroyed by Sgrub, pelted to death by meteors ages ago and their sun swelling as its life begins to end.
Ailious Slick dies 413 years post-Reckoning when Slick shoots Sn0wman, circumstantially simultaneous with Bilious Slick’s demise at the hands of Jack Noir. Calliope’s world can’t be Arcadia (or whatever their planet was called) any more than it can be Earth.
WV was exactly 413 years in the future from the Reckoning in 2009, perhaps plus or minus a few days at most. Then they saw Red Miles; but the post-Scratch universe only had Red Miles appear about two and a half years later, in 2011 + 413. So, there’s a discrepancy; one that happens to coincide with the time it takes to traverse a void window between their two sessions.
So, why can’t A1 and A2 have a larger discrepancy? A substantially larger discrepancy?
A1 is still technically an option. It’s plausibility or likelihood is up for debate, but you can’t rule it out.
jfc gamzee. you really are going to end up being the most important character in homestuck, aren’t you.
Well, it might be Lil’ Cal instead. He was watching in Gamzee’s lap at 0:00, too!
I mean, think about it: Imagine if Lil’ Cal ends up the key to saving everyone and ultimate victory. The lynchpin, the epitome of all that is good and just in Paradox Space. Wow!
I’m guessing that, in addition to knocking the B2 frog temple asteroid through a portal to prehistoric B2 Earth, the B2 session’s asteroid billiards will also send the A2 session’s veil asteroid lab hurtling back into the Furthest Ring. Eventually, the asteroid enters the Ophiuchus session, where it goes through a Reckoning portal and lands on Calliope’s planet.
Very nice. :D The important bit, from Rose:
ROSE: And it’s not that there were no meteors whatsoever. ROSE: Just the vast majority of the destructive onslaught never showed up. ROSE: But delivering the temple to the site of the forge is still integral to jumpstarting the session. ROSE: That meteor however could have been propelled through a portal by any means, not just via the reckoning.
Been thinking a lot about how this whole UU and uu deadly combat thing. It seems sadly inevitable that Calliope is going to lose this fight, but I’ve been trying to think of a reasonable scenario for how it’ll all go down. Here’s what I think:
1) uu wakes up and decides not to switch back. He cuts/gnaws off his own leg to escape his ankle chain. (Lord English is missing the same leg uu has his chain on)
2) Now with access to both computers, he gets himself into the session by being his own server player.
3) He finds his quest bed and immobilizes himself on it.
4) He talks to Roxy and tricks her waking up Calliope by saying her name. (In the chess game UU and uu played, uu won by encouraging his opponent to cheat, and then using it to his advantage. This scared Calliope into cheating in real life by telling Roxy her name)
5) Since Calliope is now awake, uu wakes up in his dreamself. He flies to planet, finds his quest bed, and stabs Calliope, who is still immobilized on it. uu goes God-tier, and Calliope, who has no dreamself left, dies.
6) uu would now have God-tier Space powers, but he’s still no Lord English. So what does he do? He *pretends to be UU to her friends* (Disguising the male and the female as each other, just like in the chess game!). He writes in green (Calliope said she wouldn’t write in green until she “won” against her brother. uu has threatened to paint his words with her blood color) and tells the kids that he’s Calliope and that she won (Her friends will be happy, as predicted, because they don’t know the truth). He then tricks them into doing things in their session that helps him gain power and hurts them.
yes yes yes this is perfect
the only possible objections relate to uu going god-tier: 1) it involves becoming your dreamself, and uu’s dreamself isn’t missing a leg; 2) if lord english were god-tier, he’d be risking a just death. aranea said he’d “discovered the secret to indestructibility”, so i doubt it’s that simple.
Some of the details are sketchy, but they’re replaceable. The concept of uu successfully(?!) pretending to be UU, to mirror the swapped king and queen, is a fantastic one.
(That, or UU will be Lord English instead of uu? It almost feels like one of those two has to happen, to mirror the chess gambit.)
Everyone spec-interested should read this right now.
He’s mixed up on the timeline and motives, self-admittedly - I don’t agree with the ways he strings some of the stuff together, that Dirk would crush AR anytime soon (possibly after a lot more plot), or that the Lotus contents won’t be relevant until after Jake’s entry - but all the individual pieces are very well-researched and spot on. Read it.
(the second image isn’t canon, it’s from here, but anyway:)
Dogsbody’s longpost gave me one HOLY SHIT of a theory.
You know that Dirk brain ghost of Jake’s?
What if he’s the dead Auto-Responder, and doesn’t know it yet?!
A lot of AR’s mannerisms predicate on the fact that he’s ironically pretending to be robotic. But if he doesn’t remember that he was…
Okay, there’s an alternative theory for this, and I don’t like it, but a friend brought it up to me (and facetiously argued for it for a while) and I can’t actually disprove it so I have to bring it up.
The theory is that AR has a dreamself. Not that he’s dreaming in a bubble… that he literally has a Derse dreamself. A pair of dream shades.
Yeeeeaaah. You can see why I don’t like this theory.
Basically, the way it works is that the shades on dream!Dirk’s face are actually dream!AR. AR doesn’t see on Derse of course… unlike Dirk, who woke up on Derse a little while after AR was created, AR’s dreamself is still asleep.
So if AR were broken, and say, his cracked frame was kissed - let’s say by Roxy - dream!Dirk’s roboshades would suddenly wake up. In which case, Dream!AR would clearly be able to dead-dream while he’s asleep, at which point he’d be brain-ghost Dirk and he wouldn’t be confused at all about being AR and yeah this is so very, very stupid.
But despite how much I hate it, there is a little evidence.
Remember how Dream!Roxy had Jaspers/Frigglish in her dreamroom?
> “Roxy: Wake up.”
What the heck was that all about?
Oh, hey there Frigglish. He greets you with a sly, conspiratorial purr, almost as if he was privy to what you dreamt. Which is impossible of course.
Hmm.
So I guess the dreamself thing could be fudged?
Where do dream selves come from? Which is to say, are they created somehow simultaneously with ectobiology? Or are they just sort of eternally there? We know they age; we’ve seen young dream Jade. But virtually everything in the incipisphere is “already there” as part of the stable loop clusterfuck. So when are dream selves “born” and placed in the towers?
They are there since the kid is “born”. Meaning if a kid is 13 years old, then that dream kid has also been on Prospit for 13 years, either asleep the whole time or growing up there in parallel with the real self.
How they get there in the first place is just as indeterminate as how Prospit and Derse get there in the first place. Like software constructs, which once instantiated, exist and behave as if always there.
So…
Yeah, I don’t like this dream!theory. At all. I want to stab it. Doesn’t make narrative weight sense to pull this unless it’s a dead AR, anyway. Stab stab stab.
I read the giant select-a-character update this morning, but didn’t have time to respond before work.
So:
Jane got MILES’D. Yeah, I pretty much knew exactly that would happen as soon as the Feferi similarities were pointed out on dogsbody’s tumblr.
Roxy getting MILES’D was very unexpected, though. An exile might be able to kiss her, but the kiss has to be from a “prince or princess”. If it does work, though, it’d ostensibly be from an exile we’ve seen an instance of before, like WV/PM. (Would royalty like WQ or BQ count? We know the Black Queen’s been deposed, possibly exiled…)
It’d be really nice to see Roxy’s dreamself wake up with the other kids and trolls, only to start bleeding after a few lines (and possibly a pass at someone). That’d get them nice and panicky. :)
Jane and Roxy need kissing, but all the players who could do so are KO’d at once… except for Gamzee, and Roxy’s dreamself. Those are the two available awake princes/princesses, in unknown locations, who could be called to deal with at least one of the corpses.
Of course, Jane might just Life herself right the hell back again. We can’t say.
With Roxy dead on future earth, and Jake KO’d on past earth next to a dragon (with a lotus timer opening soon), there’s some potential for both Tavros and Vriska to show up inexplicably alive on Earth in different times/places. In other words, Vriska would butt into the whole Jake (Long, American) Dragon situation, while Tavros could show up and kiss Roxy, or even show up on Derse and kiss Jane. (Both girls have had feelings for a Page.) The story timing doesn’t quite line up for a simultaneous appearance, though; Jake’s lotus won’t be opening for some time, and even if he’s out that long we won’t see the results this soon. The other corpse-kisses, though, need to happen pretty quickly.
“uu: AND YET YOu WILL LEAVE BEHIND. A TRuLY BREATH TAKING CORPSE.” The use of “breath taking”, intentionally spaced out, seems ominous in a way that can’t be immediately discerned for anything plotwise. However, the intent he communicates here - that the dead Calliope would leave a corpse at all - may indicate that he intends to die on his quest bed, killing their shared body in favor of a singular, permanent new one.
Dirk and Jake are now actually dead-dreaming at the same time. (Yes, Dirk should be, too; both his dreamself and realself were knocked out at the same time, and we got a black thought bubble on him; this is the first time he’s actually slept since his dual-awake deal started years ago, and it appears to be catching up on him twofold.) They may get wrangled into the same dream bubble, but I’m not sure where or for what. Maybe with the trapped-sleeping, dead-dreamself Calliope?
Sawtooth and Squarewave, with or without AR’s direction, could probably get Dirk in. Whoever saves Roxy would be able to get her house in, too, presumably. Though, I guess both of them have “started the game” enough that it’s not necessarily a requirement; they might be able to get in via dream-revival, though I see no narrative reason to get rid of the rest of Dirk’s stuff after going through all that to rid Cal specifically. In any case, Jake English is the last person to enter, as I’ve theorized before.
Hmm, I think that covers my thoughts? I’ll edit to add anything else below this unless it’s big.
EDIT: From Skype:
[6/26/12 9:36:07 AM] Don Ashdenej: Oh by the way RE: Update
[6/26/12 9:36:15 AM] Don Ashdenej: Dave will have to kiss his Mum
[6/26/12 9:36:34 AM] Don Ashdenej: In order to fulfil his Freudian arc
He could conceivably do this timeways, ala Gamzee. It’d be hilarious.
The only issues would be (1) why he didn’t save her in the first place (it might only have been possible to loop it via him already having seen her dreamself bleeding), and (2) it gives a possibly unacceptable amount of time armor to everybody else. But seeing as they’d all be in, that wouldn’t necessarily matter? (Jake still needs his head severed eventually, though! This could ostensibly prevent that from having been a thing, which might not work well.)
EDIT2: gimmethegepgun pointed out that Dirk can plug in the fenestrated window to Roxy’s house and kiss her. This sounds like the most plausible scenario.
I forgot to mention something important, theoryways! Regarding the viewport blackouts.
It may be that the further out Roxy’s dreamself is into the void, the more of it is channelled through her realself. And once she got MILES’D, it was invited in full force. Sort of like she’s siphoning/stealing void energy from the pitch black ether.
vex posted a neat theory on gamzee’s future that is quite different from your own! id love to know your thoughts on it!
I don’t have time to read it right now!! T___T
Maybe I’ll have time to read Vex’s Gamzee stuff and give it a nice long reply it deserves. I talked with him a bit about it before he wrote it up on skype though, and the tl;dr on my opinion is:
Gamzee continuing to do messed up, karma-injuring stuff, but living through the end with the heroes anyway, would basically be one of the greatest jokes Andrew could play with his character, and I personally think he will. (Not that he wouldn’t get a slight bit of karma correction with some absurd heroics at the last minute.)
If Gamzee does die eventually, I think it has to be the last and greatest joke for which Gamzee is used. One of the ways to do this is to give him what is treated in-canon as the most tragic and/or most heroic death in Homestuck, in a way that comes off as comically exaggerated. The narrative will portray everyone mourning for him, even you.
I think Gamzee having any sort of really serious death would be terrible. Like, I believe Vex was telling me something about Karkat having to kill him for the sake of everyone else. (Yes, even though he didn’t the first time he had the chance / it was built up to, and it was treated as right.) And while there’s a bit of evidence, that is actual tragedy, not meta-hilarious character-who-messes-everything-up-dies-for-massive-in-canon-tragedy. It would kill the entire joke of his character just to deliver a resigned, serious moral, when the broken aesop of the twisted moral was the entire point. Gamzee’s the Bard of Rage! He invites the destruction of cruel resignation! (NOTE: I probably have what Vex was suggesting wrong. I just know that his old opinion was that Gamzee is a completely terrible plot device in an utterly unlikable package and nothing can make sense until he’s gutted - wait, no, that may have been Quinkit’s opinion… - and I disagree, but I’m one of the rare people who think everything Gamzee’s been played for since he went sober is absolutely hilarious from a meta standpoint.)
I’m still sticking with Gamzee/Dirk as a permanent endgame pairing. It makes sense for far, far too many reasons that I’ve gone over before and can’t list here; there is no clearer endgame pairing for either of them, even if Tavros comes back to life as Vex suggested; Tav has no reason to go for Gamzee, and even though Dirk is like a nicer Vriska you still get the feeling he’d get his ass kicked about ten too many times to reciprocate, given how Dirk treats Jake brobotways. (Though I’d reiterate that the Striders are partial author inserts of a sort, so Andrew’d sort of be marrying his greatest joke, which I think is fitting.) This doesn’t mean they’ll both live, though. What it means is they have a romantic red string of doom tied between each other: If one permanently dies, the other will eventually do so as well.
Again, this is my existing opinion before reading his thing. It’s liable to change, and I’m liable to have more to say. Don’t take any criticism I levied against the strawman of his opinion I constructed for this little spiel seriously, because - again - I don’t know his opinion. Gotta read the thing. (Later.)
Dirk HAD to get all the information necessary to pull off that tremendous spacetime clusterfuck from somewhere. Someone or something gave him the clues he needed, like the lotus kernel and when it would open, et cetera.
It’s not just implausible that Dirk and AR had the wherewithal to plan this. Just like Brain-Ghost!Dirk, they needed information that they simply did not have to pull that off.
So how…?
I’m always careful to look for Doc Scratch parallels with those two. "DS" indeed seems a plausible source of that machiavellian puppet henchman, especially his transferrable AI counterpart.
He’s been getting weirder and weirder as the plot’s progressed. The session’s going to provide for even more changes.
As I just said, he is indeed a plausible origin for Doc Scratch. As uu has been shown to relate to Dirk explicitly, it’d make sense for him to keep a piece of “DS” around when he goes off to prowl the multiverse.
…HAH! I just realized something:
TT: Do you want me to draw some? uu: NO. uu: YOu ARE AN IMPOSTOR. uu: AN ARTIFICIAL BLOODLESS HEMOTYPING FRAuD. TT: What? uu: THERE IS NO HEART THAT BEATS INSIDE YOu. WITH PASSION FOR ILLuSTRATED DEBAuCHERY. AS CAN BE SAID OF TRuE MEN. uu: YOu ARE FALSE AS THE RED YOu PAINT YOuR WORDS WITH. YOUR LIES ARE RED AS THE HERRING YOu REPRESENT.
So consider: If uu were to get his hands on a copy of AR, and could make changes to him, what would he change?
Why, he’d make himtype in whiteandalways tell the truth!
Re: Dirk’s info: When in doubt, blame uu? He’s shown quite clearly that he utterly disregards temporal causality shit. And I could easy see him shooting off to Dirk about how “YOu AND ALL YOuR FRIENDS WILL DIE” and then Dirk takes that info and turns it into not-so.
I can see three options for how Dirk knew: a) Intelligence from AR. AR knew about Jake because of the bunny. He might know about Roxy because her GPS stopped moving again. b) Pre-planning with UU. UU presumably saw the first half of this ahead of time (since uu is taunting her) and could plan with Dirk/AR for the best way to resolve it. c) Totally winging it with help from AR’s premade smooch plan.
Thanks! All of this sounds rather plausible. I’m hoping to see a line from Dirk on it all, but we probably won’t get one until after the next intermission.
Well at least a large chunk of it, that being Lord English, and what is in store for Calliope and uu.
So as we know Calliope is the Muse of Space, and unfortunately we don’t quite understand what that entails for her yet but what we do know is that its the most passive. With Hussie constantly making references to his past works, I got thinking of ways any of this could tie into anything he’s done before. Then it hit me, the most passive character Hussie has ever made is Pickle Inspector from Problem Sleuth.
Now, if you havent read problem sleuth yet let me say this much:
a) Go read it.
And pay attention to this guy here.
I’ll wait here for you.
Because within the context of the story, Pickle Inspector has a very high ‘game stat’ that exists within the story that allows him to do amazing things within a dream world, its called imagination (yes that is the actual stat). Now at one point in the story Pickle Inspector splits up into six separate PIs, four of which go off to pull off time shenanigans (that will become tremendously important later in this explanation.) but the other two I’d like to focus on right now.
One of the first thing PI did with his multiple selves was ascend to godhood.
And so became GodHead PI (where daves chumhandle came from), though the only thing he could really do as a God was muse (or fondly regard) his creation, the next thing PI did was TAKE FORM OF AN EVEN MORE LOATHSOME BEAST
Now here we see an example of a single character becoming a god, and then transforming into a horrible monster…. you see where Im going with this.
A musing god, and a loathsome beast. Bear with me here, I propose that Calliopes dead dream self (seeing as PI only has this kind of power in the dream world) will be able to go God Tier, and so become Muse of Space, what will that allow her to do? Well, the other Pickle Inspectors that I mentioned earlier who went off to mess around with time? Well they returned to Godhead PI later in the story, who makes a request of them. That they split up and become all matter in the universe.
What I think a muse does, is just this (more or less). Its fairly obvious that Calliope is representative of the fandom, though what if she literally is the fandom. What if Calliope is us, as god tiered she splits into a thousands of points, thousands of readers- we /literally/ are Calliope.
Which brings us to one of the biggest mysteries in the Homestuck story.
Lord English.
What does he want, the main villain- what are his goals? What does he hope to gain from all of this?
Lets assume that uu is undoubtedly LE (If not thats one hell of a read herring ) in which case his motives have been clear from some of his first pesterlogs, he wants to kill Calliope. Think about Homestuck, and the reality its set in, what other motives could an all powerful demon have? Universal domination, possible, but unlikely seeing how easily a universe can be destroyed. Destruction of time and space? Maybe, but that seems a little useless for Hussies writing. No.
What I propose is that, All of this, all of Lord Englishes moves are to kill us. The fandom, because we are Calliope.
Hes already gotten one of us. (Lets face it, we’re as much a part of this as he is.)
Oh and one more little thing about the connection between UU uu and PI.
maybe not all of it will be correct but this seems legitimatly possible
O.O holy shit
Okay, THIS to everything here, forever. Holy shit.
She has that spiral in her dreams.
“Muse of Space” pretty much directly translates to “Fondly regard Creation”.
She’s told by uu “YOuR DEATH. WILL BE. YOUR GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT.”, which kind of makes sense if she’s somehow responsible for the perpetuation of everything ever in her death.
The whole “Lord English killing the fandom” thing is more metaphorical than anything else, but it does still have a nice whole “the fandom is responsible for reality” vibe.
(When the post connected crustacean and her Karkat-symbol connections, I thought he was tying together that spiral on GPI’s forehead with that same symbol and everything, which makes a lot more heavy and important a thematic connection!)
It’s not going to be LITERALLY what GPI did. Keep that in mind. While she’s not going to literally “be” every particle that ever exists like GPI was… it could definitely be something to the same thematic effect.
But, yeah, this fucking post ties it all together. I knew she’d do something important in her death or what have you, perhaps something extremely broad, but I didn’t feel the narrative hints and basis for the pure scope until all these GPI connections. She’s somehow going to be responsible for existence itself, or the perpetuation thereof. It’s right there in our faces! You, my friend, have cracked the code. :)
She ascends to passive godhood (not god-tier, god as in the all-pervasive God), and he descends to active demonhood. He’s a mob boss, and she’s full of imagination. Through his eventual creation, Lord English embodies destruction, and through her eventual destruction, Calliope will embody creation.
(EDIT: Though Kanaya will likely be the one to steal the “sew up reality” part of the callback.)
>bladekindeyewear: watch update, flip the fuck out, and then write 5 page essay about the most minute of details.
Clam your rumble spheres! I’m gonna do this simple and piecewise.
Major points:
It looks like PM and Jack can’t keep up a fight for three whole years. Understandable that they’d get emotionally exhausted, especially when presented with things in such a broader scope. (Also, they appear to be cutting up horrorterrors in their way as often theorized, but I’m not sure what they’ve done so far constitutes a ‘massacre’. What LE’s doing, the danger to reality, and Rose’s way-earlier assertion that helping the horrors would “save reality” could be a slightly better bet.)
The dead people who could’ve helped the kids here and there are being iced, wiped out for real. That includes the actual dead trolls; nobody’s getting any chance of a post-victory revived Nepeta or the like, it seems.
…Unless she was prototyped. This event provides a possible benevolent motive for Gamzee stuffing trolls into sprites, even if they just explode; it hijacks them and repositions them in the Void to best avoid LE’s wrath.
Notable exclusions from the dead-for-real pile: Feferi, Vriska, Tavros, and any pre-Scratch trolls. (We still haven’t seen the actual dead Feferi that arranged their dream-bubble meetups since Jade’s second dream.)
What Lord English just did is a huge slap in the face to Aradia Megido. Her dead friends getting wiped from existence, even the ones she personally introduced to the excitement and fun of an eternal afterlife? I can’t imagine she’s happy. Expect a confrontation.
As others have pointed out, ~U equates to the destruction of a universe (’~’ is the prefix for a “destructor”, dismantling a class in memory, in C++, which made it fitting for ~ATH loops. I’ll reblog someone else’s good post about that in a second.) So, the cruxtruder was counting down to the death of the universe.
LE/uu can unhinge his jaw. Fitting for someone who can supposedly devour universes. It’s likely a process like that, like what the kernelsprite did, or both.
Quite an epic Giygas reference at the end, there.
I literally haven’t the slightest idea what was up with the kernelsprite. Is the point that it’s prototyping the sun???? I don’t know. It could be shoving them into the medium or something; if the kernelsprite is still there and sucking, doesn’t it mean he hasn’t entered yet? We don’t know the process for master-class entry.
EDIT2: A great kernelsprite explanation via onecatch: Calliope and Caliborn’s kernelsprites might have combined, prototyping each other! That would explain the black-hole-like flipout.
Since uu has achieved what seems like “ultimate victory” already, his cheeks whole red instead of spiralled - faster than what we expected - we’re looking at saying “Calliope” to wake her other side up being either imminent, or a tool against Lord English himself. I’m betting on the former. Keep in mind that we still haven’t seen uu’s session or the pair’s jujus. UU has to wake up, and rather soon, for that to be relevant. Basically, UU has to do more important shit, and the course of their session (uu/UU’s) is set to change something important and/or set the stage for eventual victory.
We’ve seen or had implied almost all of Lord English’s nature, in uu… except the Honks. So, I’m putting a little more money down than before on Gamzee having raised and/or created uu/UU. He could have used Aradia’s timeboxes at the outset to travel forward into the meteor’s future, beyond their arrival in the session and on its course to wherever else it bounced. (They can’t find Gamzee because he’s essentially “hiding” in the future.) It’d explain the equipment set up for the duo, the Honks from LE… I mean, they eat special stardust for God’s sake. Who else would be behind that?
Oh, and the rotating pool-ball eyes could be because Calliope eventually blind herself and/or uu’s dreamself, to hinder him, and he needs replacements.
That crack in the fabric of reality was possibly the main point of what LE just did. If it’s a thing - and we have reason to believe it is - then I doubt the damage was just an unintended side effect of his rampage. Recall this:
UU: so i gUess today is finally the day yoU make everything better. GG: :B! UU: it is the day whereafter the legendary octet of mUtUal progenitoriety will come together and heal a great breach in paradox space.
That always had a chance of becoming a literal thing, and now it appears it has.
LE probably intended it for a purpose, but then again, he might not have. There’s a chance that many of his major moves cause similar cracks in reality - cracks which have been building up steadily and disastrously over time - and he simply does not give a fuck.
Or - and it’s a wild thought, but worth mentioning - if Calliope eventually comes to embody Paradox Space and existence itself, it would explain part of why Lord English is so eager to shatter it all.
EDIT: Or, as an anon pointed out, "He’s going around destroying dreambubbles because he hasn’t destroyed Calliope’s ghost yet.“ It could be that Calliope wasn’t completely done away with during their session, and as long as her ghost exists, he’s vulnerable to being overtaken. But I somewhat doubt this; I expect the culmination of Calliope’s heroic role to be during their shared session, not afterwards.
…Okay, I think that covers pretty much everything.
so lets talk about caliborn’s symbol. obviously it’s one of the signs of ophiuchus the serpent bearer and all that, but this part of the flash just made something go click with me.
the other cruxtruders had a countdown on those panels, but cal’s is his symbol. except the tilde and the U are seperated, so we have ~U.
now bear with me because im about as shitty at coding as karkat is, but
i’m sure we all remember ~ATH, the programming language used to code Karkat’s curse and the unhackable program that Sollux found which started running when the universe was destroyed, allowing Lord English to already be here.
~ATH has a class called universe, as seen here.
import universe U;
a class is just a blueprint. once it’s imported into a program you can make copies of it and use them at your leisure. so basically, that line of code means “make a new universe and name it “U”“.
now here’s where the interesting part starts.
affixing a tilde to a class in the C programming languages (which ~ATH very closely resembles) creates a “destructor”. these are used to destroy instances of a class after it’s served its function and is no longer needed, in order to free up memory and resources so the program can run faster.
~U / U̴ means “destroy universe”. it is the ~ATH symbol for Lord English’s entire purpose.
the cruxtruder was/is counting down until the destruction of a universe. thats probably why caliborn was a little peeved - who knows how long that could take? but what happens right after this panel? the kernelsprite goes nuts and creates a black hole, apparently paradoxically fulfilling it’s own requirement for the session’s entry. that’s paradox space for you!
Reblogging this; it sums things up nicely.
The ~ATH destructor reference was pretty obvious to me since the mobius double reacharound code, me being a programmer and all (though I didn’t recognize UU’s symbol as quite that until the Calliope reveal). I didn’t mention it because I didn’t realize so many others wouldn’t get it! Stupid programmer bubble; we have a tendency to not realize how obscure our career’s language is to everyone else.
except the attack didnt hit all of paradox space, its highly probable that various dream bubbles are unaffected. I feel like its too big of an assumption to say that Wiped out the whole after life. most, but not all likely
Let me clarify my thoughts a bit. I was being sorta broad/unclear.
The real Equius died in this dream bubble. If you watch the flash again, you can see it.
I don’t see any reason why this act of LE should be considered an isolated incident. The purpose, or partial purpose, seems to be to get rid of a large number of dead kids and trolls that could end up helping them, in the void or in their dreams. And Equius’s inclusion proves that he isn’t discriminating between their alphas and extras.
What I’m saying is that the dead trolls’ real selves should be considered wiped or dead, unless eventually saved! Meaning, if Nepeta, Eridan, or Feferi is going to be prototyped - or, like Vriska or Tavros, was going to be relocated by shenanigans/prototyping for an eventual and specific purpose - then they’ll be able to survive. If they do nothing, they’re as good as gone.
Gamzee’s prototyping of Vriska and Tavros quite possibly saved them. He could very well be about to prototype more trolls, rescuing their souls regardless of whether or not the sprites survive. Furthermore, Aradia, Sollux, and Feferi could have means to rescue specific peers for later use. But there need to be reasons, and visible actions.
Well, technically it’s only prophets of doom, like blind prophets. Maybe it’s Seers and related classes who are normally associated with blindness - the Seer god-tier uniform has a hood that obscures the eyes, after all, and Mage could be an active counterpart of Seer - but Rose was an exception because she’s a Light player, and the Light aspect is associated with actual sight and visuals. So, typical Seers and Mages could go blind, whi-
WAIT
WAIT HOLY FUCKING SHIT
WHAT SOLLUX SAYS RIGTH THERE OH MY GOD:
TA: iit2 kiind of liike how a prophet earn2 hii2 2triipe2, by beiing bliind, liike how an angel earn2 iit2 wiing2.
These cherubs being wingless, Calliope’s symbol being a Caduceus symbol without wings
And then
we already knew Caliborn needs to LOSE HIS EYES or get blinded at some point to need those poolball replacements!!!
Oh my FUCKING God I knew about the angel reference alone but wow andrew has been rubbing even minor fuckign specifics of le’s origin in our faces since EARLY ACT 5 asdfjhs
If you’ll notice, Tavros is basically dressed like Robin. Makes you think that perhaps Page is indeed the passive counterpart of the (dark) Knight after all.
So, from a number of different sources, concepts and ideas, I finally have a complete, good-feeling guess as to the final role layout/pairings, and their associated purposes.
Here we are:
Purpose - Active - Passive
– Standard Classes –
Know - Mage - Seer
Change - Witch - Maid | Witch - Heir
Destroy - Prince - Bard
Steal - Thief - Rogue
Create(/Repair) - Sylph - Heir | Maid - Sylph
Exploit - Knight - Page
– Master Classes –
Embody - Lord - Muse
EDIT: I made changes based on some codebreaking info described here, thanks to once-ler-direction!
EDIT 2013.01.21 - It’s a bit old, but a while ago I summed up almost all the reasoning for my choices - and the gaps I filled that can be most easily rearranged - in this forum post!!!
Males would own a monopoly on Destroying and Exploiting; Females would own a monopoly on Stealing and Repairing(/Creating). (EDIT: yes i know the gender info is out of date what did you expect did you see how old this post is) Both of these choices make some sense. Then, the broadly applicable classes that Know and Change are split between males and females: for Knowers, the males are active, and for Changers, the females are active. A balanced 3:3-3:3 active/passive split.
There are three passive and three active classes per gender among the standard classes, the way it works out here.
Notes:
The purpose of a role is to be performed both to and through its aspect:
“One who <purpose>s and <purposes> through <aspect>.”
So, a Witch of Space, a class associated with Changing and manipulating, would be:
“One who manipulates Space and manipulates through Space.”
One of the clearest ways we’ve been given to assess the difference between Active and Passive classes, though it was merely implied, is that active classes’ ability use seems driven through and for that player’s own will, whereas for a passive class it’s more as if driven by the will of the aspect itself.
So, think about it this way, when you say someone’s title: If you’re an active class, say, the Witch of Space, you can sound it out as if said Witch ‘owns’ Space.
But with passive classes, driven somewhat by the will and whim of the aspect, think of it more like the aspect 'owns’ the class. So, when you hear Maid of Time and Bard of Rage (assuming Maid’s passive), it helps to switch them around and instead think of them like this: Time’s Maid. Rage’s Bard. Hope’s Page.
That really helps you understand the motivation and operation of those classes, especially if you think of what they’ve done in the plot. And how the “Embody” purpose of master classes can take a very different form in the Lord of Time as opposed to Space’s Muse.
EDIT: Our concept of broadly-manipulating god-tiers, ones who have the power to visibly shift Breath or Space at whim, is based on the intentionally introduced bias of mainly showing us the abilities of those who Change/Manipulate. The abilities of other god-tiers could be pervasively less visible and more obscure, like Vriska’s luck-stealing (mainly depicted through surplus visual aids), her luck stockpile’s continuous benefits, and Seers’ knowledge.
EDIT2: It could be noted that the Repair roles could also be equated with the ability to Create. In other words, a Create/Destroy dichotomy between the genders. In this situation, the Sylph uses her ability to create mainly in order to mend the damaged, while the active Maid is more likely to create outright. In other words, the Maid of Time can make time! That definition(/pun) certainly embodies what Aradia did with all those doomed timelines and clones.
I’m not going to justify the choices I made in that list right here (or the subtle evidence from Hussie’s tweets and stuff that I’m referring to), because I don’t feel like wasting your time for six fuckall pages. But, there you have it! My guesses. :D
(Addendum 2012.10.18: There is some evidence that classes invert along with roles.)
If you’ll notice, Tavros is basically dressed like Robin. Makes you think that perhaps Page is indeed the passive counterpart of the (dark) Knight after all.
So, from a number of different sources, concepts and ideas, I finally have a complete, good-feeling guess as to the final role layout/pairings, and their associated purposes.
Here we are:
Purpose - Active - Passive
— Standard Classes —
Know - Mage - Seer
Change - Witch - Maid
Destroy - Prince - Bard
Steal - Thief - Rogue
Repair - Sylph - Heir
Exploit - Knight - Page
— Master Classes —
Embody - Lord - Muse
Three passive and three active classes per gender among the standard classes, the way it works out here.
I believe that god tier accent colors are related to how active/passive the class is. The Page and the Heir should be both active or both passive since their shoes/belts/codpieces are yellow.
Why do I think this is so? Well, look at Vriska.
Her shoes are red. This isn’t suspicious. Red compliments orange quite nicely. Now let’s see Rose.
Blue slippers? I did not expect that! I thought the colors of shoes formed a hidden pattern based on class, which was a reasonable idea at the time. After all, we had never seen two different god tiers with the same class at the time.
Let’s take a look at a Sylph.
If you look closely enough, you can see that Aranea is wearing pointy baby blue slippers. Hussie has said Seers are passive, so we can assume Sylphs are passive.
Let’s dig a little deeper.
Dave’s class is active.
This would mean Maids are also active. Disregard the red soles on the bottom: they’re the same shade of red as the aspect symbol so they don’t count.
that’s all i’ve got
Hm! Could be! …Oh, and Pages of Breath have yellow shoes in the flash, just like John!! That would confirm Passive Heirs!
Maid has always been a strong candidate for an active class, especially under the “Repair” purpose. In which case, a Maid of Time would be “One who repairs/heals Time, or repairs/heals through Time”. Aradia can indisputably be construed to fit that description. A Sylph of Space would be passive in comparison: “One who invites the repair of Space or heals through Space”.
In that alternative - which, honestly, makes a little more sense than my initial guess - we’d have:
Purpose - Active - Passive
— Standard Classes —
Know - Mage - Seer
Change - Witch - Heir
Destroy - Prince - Bard
Steal - Thief - Rogue
Repair - Maid - Sylph
Exploit - Knight - Page
— Master Classes —
Embody - Lord - Muse
This is… perhaps more of an even distribution. We still get a 3/3 active/passive split for males and females. Males would own a monopoly on Destroying and Exploiting; Females would own a monopoly on Stealing and Repairing. Both of these choices make some sense. Then, the broadly applicable classes that Know and Change are split between males and females: for Knowers, the males are active, and for Changers, the females are active.
Wow, this is really, really balanced. I like this more, actually.
It also means that our concept of broadly-manipulating god-tiers, ones who have the power to visibly shift Breath or Space at whim, is based on the intentionally introduced bias of mainly showing us the abilities of those who Change/Manipulate. The abilities of other god-tiers could be pervasively less visible and more obscure, like Vriska’s luck-stealing (mainly depicted through surplus visual aids), her luck stockpile’s continuous benefits, and Seers’ knowledge.
I am three times more satisfied with this list! Thanks, the-sad (EDIT: it’s now once-ler-direction)! :D
EDIT: A clarification from the-sad, since this was misunderstood by at least one person earlier: “What I mean to say is that there are two shoe colors per aspect. One is an active shoe color and the other is a passive shoe color.” Emphasis mine, because bolding turns me on.
EDIT2: It could be noted that the Repair roles could also be equated with the ability to Create. In other words, a Create/Destroy dichotomy between the genders. In this situation, the Sylph uses her ability to create mainly in order to mend the damaged, while the active Maid is more likely to create outright. In other words, the Maid of Time can make time! That definition(/pun) certainly embodies what Aradia did with all those doomed timelines and clones.
I have a theory, from that whole “he who will drop it while it’s hot while the pimp’s in the crib” thing. People suggest dave will be the one to defeat LE; sure, that’s prolly true, and I say it’s because he won’t be defeating LE, he’ll be stopping him from ever existing. I’m gonna propose that LE can’t be beaten, so the only way to stop him, is to stop him from ever being, as this picture seems to suggest to me. So the motherfucker’s gonna drop it like it’s hot while the pimp’s still in his crib. Ya gets it?
Oh SHIT.
AWWWWFUCK
DAVE DO THE TIMEY SHIT, DO IT
yes, good.
ONLY THE HERO OF TIME
CAN DEFEAT THE OTHER HERO OF TIME
Oh, right! I forgot how their confrontation was often theorized by the “in the crib” line to be soon after LE’s creation, before the Calliope reveal. Now that his original form is known to be Caliborn, in a separate place and session, a literal interpretation of “in the crib” could indicate some very specific times and places for the form of interference Dave’s final sacrifice† would take.
The image depicts Dave stopping Caliborn before he even enters. I don’t think that’s likely; the timeline mechanics in Homestuck are very well thought out, and I don’t think he can glitch him straight out of existence when said existence has ontological inertia. But… perhaps through that (or a Scratch, see 2), he could facilitate a separate version of Paradox Space where Lord English doesn’t exist? (Perhaps Calliope’s role isn’t to embody Paradox Space itself, but an entirely new iteration of it, as “nothing new happens in Paradox Space” but something could very well occur outside it? And maybe Lord English is fracturing reality to break into other- *head explodes*
Dave could interfere during the final stretch of Caliborn and Calliope’s game session. We know that Caliborn results in Lord English, but there’s still a large gap in that session for important events to take place, especially those with the keys to stopping him. Dave could have attacked him, hindered him somehow, tied him into a loop that constricts his progression through the universe, stolen one of their particularly ‘hot’ jujus and 'dropped’ it somewhere that results in the kids having a method of attack against English… perhaps even scratched their session, and/or somehow allowed Calliope to reach God-Tier in some branch! In fact, you know how Skaia’s become blackened? Perhaps, though Dave would be personally involved, others could have helped from afar… what if a God-Tier Roxy blacked out their Skaia remotely, preventing Caliborn from foreseeing Dave’s fateful interference?!
Calliope and Caliborn were born and raised by someone else’s actions, on the trolls’ meteor, given equipment and supplies to facilitate their nature. (Gamzee is a very likely candidate.) So what if Dave did something to the young little dualblooded alien? …Though I admittedly can’t imagine what.
† Yes, it’s very likely that Dave can’t come back from whatever he does. We can’t be certain, but what we think means his permanent death in the process has been foreshadowed since Cascade.
How did you make the “Dave is going to die” theory?
I wasn’t the one who made it.
In [S] Cascade, people pointed out that Dave was the only kid not shown when the fourth wall was showing images cycling back through time through everyone’s introductions, on Lord English’s coat. And the segment of the window that Jade’s ship crashed through was the bottom left of four: the one associated on capsule monitors with Dave Strider.
We also had Lord English’s pimp-like nature - associated with the “pimp’s in the crib” line in the They Wait banners - and then the “Pimpslayer” tier for Dave, further insinuating a confrontation or fight between Dave and Lord English.
Lately, the clues have been getting even more heavyhanded, through quotes voiced by Caliborn (LE’s original form):
uu: “KNIGHT TO D6." uu: THE KNIGHT IS DEAD. uu: YOuR WORDS ARE BORING.
As well as AR (likely Doc Scratch’s original form):
TT: Tick, tock, Jake. Time is dead kids. TT: How ‘bout that smooch?
Furthermore, Dave still doesn’t quite believe he’s a hero, and is set to continue to be insecure in the face of his badass young Bro, showed doing something involving possibly more determination than Dave would ever have mustered in a similar situation (Dirk: Synchronize/Unite) immediately after Dave’s insecurities were reiterated by him nervously seeing him in person.
That’s a very dangerous character arc to have in any story. And given the possibility of a Heroic death against Lord English, Dave’s personal arc is a loaded rifle, sights lined straight the fuck up with Deadsville.
(…I might have made a post/ask-reply just like this a few weeks ago. I forget, I didn’t tag it. At least this one’s tagged and rebloggable.)
The space tier characters all have something in common, first we have Jade and her fascination with anthros
Jade died and her god tier turned out to be:
Next we have Kanaya and her vampires:
Kanaya died but got revived as:
Then we have Calliope and her trollsona, who looks suspiciously like Calmasis
And since Caliborn fully intends on keeping their body for himself (rendering Calliope more or less dead at the moment), would that probably mean that at some point in the future Calliope will be revived as some kind of troll/grimdark wizard fusion? Will we see more of Calmasis? Will Calliope become Calmasis? WILL SHE BECOME HUSSIE
I’m excited to see how things turn out!
Ah, yeah I noticed this. Mentioned it to some skype friends, but not on here, I don’t think.
I’m not sure whether she’ll become a troll, or come to embody Paradox Space itself, but there’s obviously going to be some sort of transformation here. Especially since Calliope’s not only a master class, but one more obsessed with her fantasy identity and distasteful of her own than any of the other Space class individuals.
Something I stumbled across regarding an earlier Homestuck page:
[8/6/12 11:06:04 PM] blastyoboots: uu: I MAINLY JuST SKIM PAST IT ALL WITH DISGuST. EXCEPT FOR THE PARTS.
uu: WHERE PEOPLE DIE.
uu: I COuLD READ THOSE.
uu: OVER AND OVER.
uu: AND ALSO MAYBE THE PARTS.
uu: WHERE PEOPLE “KISS”?
uu: IN THE WAY THAT WHEN YOu CHANCE uPON SOMETHING.
uu: uNSPEAKABLY AND VISCERALLY ABHORRENT.
uu: IT GETS HARD.
TT: Does it now.
uu: TO PRY YOuR EYES AWAY!
uu: YOu DIDN’T LET ME FINISH.
uu: TO PRY YOuR EYES AWAY.
TT: Oh.
[8/6/12 11:06:12 PM] blastyoboots: someone quoted this sequence
[8/6/12 11:06:20 PM] blastyoboots: and something came to my attention:
[8/6/12 11:06:24 PM] Spongubobble (Kips): the cali’s are tumblr
[8/6/12 11:06:28 PM] blastyoboots: uu: TO PRY YOuR EYES AWAY!
uu: YOu DIDN’T LET ME FINISH.
uu: TO PRY YOuR EYES AWAY.
[8/6/12 11:06:40 PM] blastyoboots: “to pry your eyes away”
[8/6/12 11:06:52 PM] randomlinktime: oh
[8/6/12 11:06:57 PM] blastyoboots: more losing his eyes, necessitating replacements, foreshadowing
[8/6/12 11:07:08 PM] blastyoboots: or more likely Calliope doing it to herself to slow him down
There’s already lots of hints here and there that Caliborn will get his eyes blinded or destroyed. This was just an important one I missed the first time around.
Also:
[8/6/12 11:10:09 PM] randomlinktime: i’m suddenly tempted to work in an oedipus joke to a theory of how that will happen
[8/6/12 11:10:16 PM] blastyoboots: oh wow
[8/6/12 11:10:26 PM] Lisle: Yes, it is a rather oedipal gesture.
This is a theory I’ve had for some damn time: Gamzee obtained, raised, and locked in the ectobiological coordinates for Calliope/Caliborn, an ecto-child of Jade Harley, Karkat Vantas, and (optionally) also Lil’ Cal.
Yes, this is a serious theory. And it explains plenty:
EDIT: Added MORE POINTS in smalltext! :D
His use of Aradia’s Timeboxes shows us where Gamzee is hiding on the meteor: Its future! Since it eventually ends up where Calliope and Caliborn are, Gamzee could have wound forward past its entry and exit of the alpha session, free to mess around in peace.
Wherever and whenever Gamzee is hiding, he has to burn three years to match the ages of everyone else. Why not spend those three years raising a cute little skull monster baby who just happened to come down on a meteor? Once the child could fend for itself, Gamzee could have simply rewound back to when the meteor entered the alpha session, joining the others at the same age.
Someone raised Calliope/Caliborn, alchemizing(?) and setting up a bunch of equipment that they clearly do not understand, calling them ‘jujus’. (Separately from the official, timeloopy 'jujus’.) When you take the timeboxes into account, the voided-out book, and the boxfuls of special stardust the cherubs were left to eat, Gamzee is the clear likelihood for that someone.
Many of Lord English’s features have been explained in Caliborn, but one of the looming mysteries is why he has a tendency to HONK. If Gamzee had raised him, this would be very clear!
A human/troll hybrid has the potential to be very alien, especially if one adds a corrupting element (the optional Cal) to the mix. Of the human/troll hybrids possible, Karkat && Jade makes the most sense given their personalities, symbols, elements of clothing, quirks, and associated colors. They are VERY similar to Karkat and Jade. In fact, it makes so much sense that when UU gave us her first conversation, I had initially surmised that she was a future Jade/Karkat hybrid demi-troll! (While it was eventually ruled out by her seemingly implying she was a troll, before the Cherub reveal, I still found it QUITE suspicious that the Karkat similarities were brought out in full force with her brother.)
ROMSPEC DISCLAIMER: A Karkat && Jade ectochild is NO INDICATION that Karkat/Jade will be a final pairing. In fact, it might mean the opposite, serving as the 'resolution’ / 'cashing-in’ of all the romantic foreshadowing between the two, and other odd coincidences like that BARK/KRAB/BRAKA code.
Why would Karkat and Jade be chosen? Why, because of Gamzee, of course! Do recall that someone locked in the ectobiological coordinates for John in his session, presumably one of the guardians. If Gamzee serves as that someone for Calliope and Caliborn by getting into their session… why, perhaps while lurking around in the background and watching everyone pre-horrorstuck, Gamzee had observed Karkat warming up to Jade? And perhaps, in his infinite wisdom whimsy, he decided it would be great if they had children? Hm? :)
Caliborn is clearly a young Lord English. Calliope is rather set to make an incredible sacrifice with her death, possibly facilitating the creation of all of Paradox Space. As the individual responsible for the existence and nature of these two(ish) individuals, Gamzee would cement his position as the most important character in Homestuck!
EDIT:ADDITIONAL POINTS:
Boltstuck added some wonderful evidence: "We know that Andrew likes to borrow from his past works; Gamzee has already shown parallels to “Whistles: The Starlight Calliope” and there’s a good chance of Caliborn/Calliope’s origins being another call-back. — The comic centers around the titular Whistles, an innocent and well-meaning clown who’s unfailingly loyal to his evil Master and goes into brutal, violent rages when said Master is hurt or threatened. His Master is “unkillable” in that every time he is slain, a new version of him is spawned. Much like with Lord English’s multiple incarnations. Toward the end of the story, Whistles’s two fellow clowns find a way to prevent the respawning - but not before an infant version of the Master survives the attack and convinces Whistles to adopt and care for it.“
According to UU: ”UU: my species has never even had a home planet.“ Never?! Life and sentience require rich diversity and millions of years to evolve. Cherubs couldn’t have evolved in the void, with nothing… therefore, it’s most likely that they had a shortcut. Andrew is implying that Cherubs were ectobiologized as a race, their initial seed population growing to spread throughout the universe. And thus, they almost certainly had an external DNA source from at least one other sentient race.
Calliope and Caliborn have troll-like blood color variety, indicating trolls as a source race. However, they have no horns - only human-like skulls - and their white-irised eyes are quite human as well. Therefore, it isn’t hard to surmise that Gamzee combined a human and a troll; almost certainly a boy and a girl, to mirror the combining of them into an androgynous body (like he’s been doing with the likes of Tavrisprite), mirror normal m/f reproduction, and mirror the :o) and Do: mirthful messiahs that Gamzee once said were him all along.
The boy component is Karkat, hands down. Caliborn is unbelievably similar to him, his perfect kismesis even: Like Karkat, but worse in every way, incredibly powerful, and evil. And Karkat’s listed position is even in the exact spot between his friends that Lime would have been on the spectrum; his blood and Lime-colored blood might have been no more than a gene-swap away in the first place!
Jade is a bit tricker a choice, with circumstantial evidence like the colors, or Calliope’s symbol’s main component being a tower that looks like Jade’s house surrounded by snakes (echidna), et cetera. But it becomes incredibly clear by process of elimination: Jade is the only plausible human girl Gamzee would have known and chosen, and no other human girl fits the symbolism well enough!
And finally, there’s the narrative text here that was addressed at Jade as she stared through the fourth wall at LE’s jacket: "But you don’t know it’s a coat. That would only invite more questions. You don’t know what it shields. Nor do you know whose shoulders it was meant to cover. If you knew that - if you even knew his name - you would understand terror no human ever has.” But that’s strange, since “Caliborn” doesn’t do the trick! So, if this name alone is supposed to inspire terror in Jade specifically… Think about it for a moment. Were Gamzee to create a Harley-Vantas ectochild, what do you suppose he’d make its last and/or middle names to fit? :D Even if Jade doesn’t know LE’s true nature, from a name like that alone (with parts of Karkat and Jade’s names blatantly in it), I think Andrew could credibly claim that no human has ever understood the terror of having unexpectedly sired a child with a grumpy alien!
Am I right, or am I right? :D
(Gamzee and Caliborn in the image arted up by my awesome friend doridachi! Click here for a larger version of the gif.) EDIT: I fixed the eyes I forgot to animate on the gif; the larger-version link will still link to the right one on all of them!
Okay this isn’t really a theory but more of a speculation.
YOU KNOW WHAT STILL REALLY BOTHERS ME? THIS SONG REALLY BOTHERS ME. And not like in a “wow that sounds bad” kind of way because hell no this song is awesome, but in a way of “WE HAVEN’T GOT AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT” kind of way. Because okay so Calliope/Calliborn/UU/uu is a cherub, okay, I get that, but it still doesn’t really explain limebloods in troll society? I mean we know they exist, we even have evidence that they exist:
“You often like to draw your TROLLSONA too, CALLIE OHPEEE. Yes, you suppose that’s a stretch, fitting your name into the 6/6 letter format like that. That’s ok, though. The limebloods reportedly had some unusual names. And they sure weren’t very popular. You like to believe you’d have fit right in.”
And knowing hussie he wouldn’t mention Limebloods without an ultimate purpose to them, and the song I linked is on the Alternia album, which came out around the time the trolls were introduced which is why every theme there is pretty fresh baked from the oven, and it’s worth mentioning that this IS the 13th track in the album, with the name “The Thriteenth Hour”, with “?????????????”, 13 question marks. I just really want to know why this track exists and if we’re going to see an actual limeblooded troll because I really really want the concept and the track itself used and explored.
CALLIOPE AND CALIBORN ARE COOL BUT KNOWING MORE ABOUT LIMEBLOODS IS REALLY COOL AND INTERESTING
Oh, my theory explains that perfectly! (The song was just something that Radiation did, sparked by the possibility of a thirteen troll often speculated about. I mean, that thirteenth zodiac symbol had been around forever. It’s moot; I’m talking about the troll limebloods.)
You see:
Lord English ate the limebloods.
.
.
.
That’s not exaggeration by the way, I’m not kidding. I believe Lord English literally had the post-Scratch limebloods rounded up for him, and chowed the fuck down on them one by one. Has a taste for the color.
There’s plenty of cannibalism foreshadowing around Caliborn, including Whistles references. I honestly think this was the case.
EDIT: Oh, techloveArtist commented that he probably did plenty of the painting of his mansion and such with their blood. As he said he would. *Hits forehead with palm.* And the religion based after him even had highbloods painting the walls with blood*FACEPALM FACEPALM FACEPALM*
I still believe he ate most of them, though. Or a good lot of them. There would have been plenty to spare.
(EDIT: An important followup theory on BUCKETS can be seen here! EDIT: Also, STEAK!)
LORD ENGLISH’S TRUE NAME
Alright… in my edits to the original theorypost, I brought up this seemingly-absurd point:
And finally, there’s the narrative text here that was addressed at Jade as she stared through the fourth wall at LE’s jacket: ”But you don’t know it’s a coat. That would only invite more questions. You don’t know what it shields. Nor do you know whose shoulders it was meant to cover. If you knew that - if you even knew his name - you would understand terror no human ever has.” But that’s strange, since “Caliborn” doesn’t do the trick! So, if this name alone is supposed to inspire terror in Jade specifically… Think about it for a moment. Were Gamzee to create a Harley-Vantas ectochild, what do you suppose he’d make its last and/or middle names to fit? :D Even if Jade doesn’t know LE’s true nature, from a name like that alone (with parts of Karkat and Jade’s names blatantly in it), I think Andrew could credibly claim that no human has ever understood the terror of having unexpectedly sired a child with a grumpy alien!
Though this was a plausible explanation for the text, it just… sounded too stupid to me.
You size up the arcane contraption. The blue flicker of the coat’s lining is arresting. But you don’t know it’s a coat. That would only invite more questions. You don’t know what it shields. Nor do you know whose shoulders it was meant to cover. If you knew that - if you even knew his name - you would understand terror no human ever has.
So… if Caliborn is an ectochild of Jade and Karkat, he would have to have a name that instantly told that fact unequivocally to Jade, in order to inspire “terror no human” has ever understood.
But what would that even look like? Caliborn Jade Karkat? Caliborn Harley-Vantas? They all sound so silly and terrible!
And then… then, I had a conversation with shoyslayer over Skype.
blastyoboots: I can’t think of a name that does the job I implied that doesn’t sound batshit retarded, though :)
blastyoboots: I mean, what, Caliborn Harley-Vantas?
ShoySlayer: Then again
ShoySlayer: Hussie said ALL fantrolls are canon
ShoySlayer: Even the shitt5y ones
ShoySlayer: *shitty
ShoySlayer: Maybe it was foreshadowing he was gonna pull a shitty plot twist
blastyoboots: PFF YOU’RE RIGHT
blastyoboots: oh my god it sounds like the shittiest self-insert fantroll name
It sounds like a shitty self-insert fantroll’s name.
It sounds like a shitty self-insert fantroll’s name.
IT SOUNDS LIKE A SHITTY SELF-INSERT FANTROLL’S NAME!!!!
And who do we know who has been constantly joked about by the fandom as a stereotypical mary-sue fantroll?!
“hello this is my fantroll Calliope Harley-Vantas she is jade and akrkat’s son and she has super special lime blood and is REALLY SWEET AND KIND even though her race is violent and she is one of the most powerful special classes of her own called a master class and she has her own session and”
Lord English, the GREATEST ENEMY IN HOMESTUCK, would have a name like the most absolutely retarded, terrible fanmade mary-sue human/troll hybrid ever imaginable!!!
CALIBORN HARLEY-VANTAS
It’s terrifying. It’s horrible. It’s perfect, and exactly what Andrew would pull.
Okay, so you know how the Condesce instituted a reproduction ban?
TT: She began instituting these crazy laws. First of all, people weren’t allowed to reproduce. She found our usual method of procreation revolting, and anyone who engaged in it was punished by death. TT: But she still needed an ongoing population of subjects to abuse, so to propagate the race she set up this weird system. TT: At random intervals every citizen would be required to supply their genetic material to drones. That DNA would be collected and combined in some way.
Now, the idea has been going around in the IDE/Theory thread that this wasn’t necessarily the Condesce’s opinion/will alone, but that of Lord English. Meenah expressed disappointment at Serket’s story skipping the “steamy” parts about her spidery love affair with the Summoner, or at least Aranea insinuated it. English, however, does find the physical acts that lead to normal human procreation abhorrent. It would make sense for him to have them banned.
In fact, there’s a possibility that it could have carried over to Alternia, as well. The possibly contact-minimizing bucket system could have been instituted via the combined efforts of Scratch and English, to suit the demon’s delicate sensibilities. Pre-Scratch trolls may have still used a Mother Grub system, but the whole affair might have been slightly more personal.
It’s a plausible theory. But that’s not the reason I’m posting. The reason is because I remembered this:
TT: Many years later, long after the original donors had died, clones would be spawned from their DNA. So no one would ever be able to know who their “parents” were, or be able to trace their lineage.
Keeping people from knowing who their parents were.
KEEPING PEOPLE FROM KNOWING WHO THEIR PARENTS WERE!!!
I’ve already joked that Caliborn is going to make the Jane face when he sees who the ectobiology monitors are locked in on (Karkat, Jade, and possibly Lil’ Cal), during his session. What if he found the revelation of who his ectobiological components were SO DISGUSTING that as Lord English, hekept entire races from tracing their lineage?!??
(And if you ask? Yes, yes I am laughing my ass off.)
Our people have waited for centuries for the Four Nobles to arrive, and it seems we will wait centuries more. We will wait so long that apparently we will all die waiting? That’s what we’re supposed to do they say. It’s just a big waiting game up in here. And when the Nobles finally arrive, then apparently THEY have to wait too!
From the Myst-esque flash where you explore LOCAH.
Why would they need to wait?
Because they need to wait for Jane’s birthday. Then Jane, Jake, Roxy, and Dirk will all be 16, and John and pals would bust through and it’d be Jane AND John’s 16th birthdays at the same time.
The beta kids when arriving would all be 16, and Hussie wants all the kids to be the same age, so why would he let the alpha kids stay 15 by just a few months?
Let’s hope the batterwitch doesn’t skewer them before then.
Hmmmm…
The only reason I don’t want to buy this is how it feels like Act 6 is paced. But that’s irrational of me. We should probably buy this as likely, if not more likely than the alternative.
That is, unless the original 4 kids to be like older brothers and sisters? It’d make some thematic sense. But I have no way of telling if that’s what he intends or not.
except…i thought your theory says that Gamzee sets the ectobilogy targets to before Jade goes dog tier? So she wouldn’t have her Becsprite powers when her DNA is used to make Calliope and Caliborn.
I thought it most likely that he’d target pre-God Jade. And he still may.
Essentially, the default option would be to target the trollian-viewport-visible, non-dog-tier Jade, as long as there was no reason to include the dogsprite part of her. And I didn’t see any, aside from the side possibility that her sprite could have bled green, and that by extension, Jade now might as well. (To parallel with Calliope’s lime blood.)
However, the steaks are quite the additional hint I overlooked.
Furthermore, these could always merely be foreshadowing, without having to physically involve God-Tier Jade as opposed to regular Jade in the combination. Just like the BARK/KRAB/BRAKA code.
I think Echidna Abraxas, the Space Hope denizen, is another one of the ectobiological components of Calliope and Caliborn. (As per that Gamzee Ectobiology Theory.)
Her bones are green, toothy, and even have cherub cheekbones.
Calliope has a serpentine tongue, and Caliborn’s jaws can tear off limbs.
Echidna is complicit in LE’s entry into sessions, and we don’t know why.
And to top it all off, she happens to be the “mother of all monsters”.
EDIT: Anonymous asked you:
Pretty sure those are Abraxas’ bones and not Echidna’s; the skull is beaklike and Echidna has been shown with a humanlike face.
Hm, good point… To be fair, Hope does have ties to them, too…
Through all the sex talk (and implied Porrim scores) in the flash walkaround, what was conspicuously missing was buckets (pails, etc).
Pails and slurries were mentioned, but it was in the context of Kankri’s trigger warnings, when he was launching a conversation about Alternian society…
@kankri_talk KANKRI: N9w I realize we’ve 6een at this f9r s9me time already, 6ut at the risk 9f derailing the dial9gue y9u initiated, and may I just say h9w thrilled I am that y9u did, Karkat, I w9uld just like qualify my entire analysis 9f y9ur “Alternian culture” 6y saying that in c9ntrast with life 9n 6ef9rus, while y9ur pe9ple may have 6een engaged in vi9lent, lethal class struggle f9r milli9ns 9f sweeps, 6y n9 means d9es this imply that the 6ef9ran way 9f life was entirely with9ut pr96lematic elements, perhaps even m9re distur6ing and insidi9us f9r their lack 9f ackn9wledgement and 9pen discussi9n, particularly as a c9nsequence 9f what in my view were widely and dismayingly unexamined systemic s9cial injustices resulting fr9m the entrenched p9wer dynamics in play, dynamics strikingly similar t9 th9se 9f y9ur planet’s markedly m9re 6ellic9se iterati9n, which has 9nly served t9 fully vindicate my hyp9thesis that such a hierarchy is really predicated 9n intrinsic dysfuncti9n, and failure t9 shift all the usual narratives and undiagn9sed pr96lems int9 an 9pen, judgment-free disc9urse thr9ugh which pr96lematic issues are c9nstructively channeled int9 m9re intelligently pr96lematized avenues 9f discussi9n.
@kankri_talk2:#TW#9ppressi9n#culling#gru6-vi9lence#lusus-a6use#hem9ph96ia#pails#slurries#a6leism KANKRI: N9w 6ef9re I c9ntinue, it is 9nly decent 9f me t9 warn y9u a69ut certain triggers that are surely ahead in this essay. I mean c9nversati9n. Triggers include 6ut likely will n9t 6e limited t9 class 9ppressi9n, culling culture and vi9lence against gru6s, lusus a6use, c9mplementary and anal9g9us hate speech, pail filling, slurries and 9ther c9ncupiscent fluids, lifespan shaming, a6leist slurs, pr9lix dissertation… Actually, may6e it w9uld 6e easier f9r y9u t9 list y9ur triggers, and I’ll d9 my 6est t9 av9id th9se t9pics, 9r navigate them m9re delicately, if at all p9ssi6le?
@karkat_horror:# KARKAT:
We know they had lusii and Mother Grubs, but… did they have bucket-based reproduction? Or not?
Because some have theorized that due to Lord English’s influence, his disgust at anything other than surface intimacy:
PORRIM: Yo+ur po+st-scratch self, who+ grew up to+ be the empress, was really just the Lo+rd’s slave all alo+ng. Implicity during her lo+ng reign, thro+ugh manipulatio+n by his cunning emplo+yee.
PORRIM: And then explicitly, after the extinctio+n o+f o+ur race. She fo+rmally became his servant, and did his bidding lo+ng thereafter.
MEENAH: W)(AT!!!!!
That Alternia had an impersonal bucket system by his design?
It's almost confirmed, and I’m personally (subjectively) certain it’s what Andrew is aiming for.
It’s time to break this down. It’s time to analyze this a little. It’s time… to argue with Vexarian.
It sounded quite clearly like Rose/Kanaya, and little else, to a lot of people. However, as Romspeccers, we should do branching analysis. Here’s the quote:
@kanaya_facepalm KANAYA: I Had The Same Feelings Of Trepidation The Last Time I Encountered Someone I Admired
@meenah_idle MEENAH: oh yeah who was that
@kanaya_happy:#-KANAYA: …
@meenah_idle MEENAH: huh
@meenah_happy MEENAH: you mean
@meenah_wink MEENAH: her over there
@meenah_happytalk:#her??MEENAH: talky girl in the orange nighty jams
@kanaya_smirklaugh:#-#-KANAYA: …
@meenah_wink MEENAH: i seaaa
@meenah_happytalk MEENAH: saw you two hangin together last time
And don’t forget Rose seemingly flirting with Meenah:
@rose_coytalk:#Also,-I-like-your-braids.ROSE: I’m just curious about you. You seem like an interesting person who probably has a lot of stories to tell.
Our expectations have been subverted before. We need to consider the alternatives of what Kanaya said, the ways Andrew could throw this back into our face:
When Kanaya said ‘Maybe’, she meant they were pale!!! (Just kidding, don’t worry. Kanaya’s feelings for Rose have had no reason to diminish, and as long as that’s the case, she’s intent not to fall into the pale trap again like she did with Vriska, much less be satisfied by it. How would her feelings for Rose have evaporated to allow that scenario, offscreen?)
She’s fooling herself? Kanaya might have imagined a relationship where there’s really just a friendship or other partnership. However, this isn’t likely; it would only make sense if we had upcoming, immediate soap-opera-y interactions to come, but after these walkarounds we’re set to jump forward another year, and it can’t last that long. There’s just no way to work it into the story.
But seriously, this is indeed still ambiguous! Kanaya’s positively glowing, sure, but she could just be bashfully acknowledging that she does have red feelings for Rose to Meenah.
That last one’s the kicker.
In context, it makes slightly more sense as “we’re in a relationship”. Meenah said it was adorable, and Kanaya didn’t correct her. She said an optimistic, smirk-laughing maybe, not indicating even a hint of frustration. (She was happy!!!) A metric ton of bashful hashtags. Why would she be misleading like that?
But on the other hand, it’s not the first time Kanaya’s been unclear…
GG: what am i breeding???? GA: Frogs GG: :O GA: Sorry I Thought That Was Obvious
And for one with a penchant for being literal, 'maybe’ could indeed be a literal 'maybe’!
With all other evidence discounted, this statement would only be a 60/40 % in favor of confirmation. But compared to how little movement we’ve had for Rose/Kanaya so far, that is huge!
It’s good evidence, and objectively so.
Which is part of why I don’t like what Vexarian is doing, and particularly the way he’s representing my opinions.
A short time ago I was arguing with BladekindEyewear on Skype, about the content of the latest update. And specifically it was about the state of Rose and Kanaya’s relationship as it currently is in canon. I’m certain you’ve all seen for yourself or heard of the goings on.
To put it simply, I’m not buying it.
As far as a confirmation goes, this seems to be exceptionally weak. We have literally nothing but Kanaya’s word, and I can’t even say with full confidence that we have that. Her response is sufficiently asinine as to throw under the bus of “wishful thinking”.
From my perspective, this looks much more like a deliberate attempt to mislead for the sake of later plans. Otherwise you would imagine there would be something, anything more.
Boots doesn’t agree, but he’s always been pretty asinine on this topic and his shipping goggles tend to be screwed on really tight.
Vex and I have had hot, clothesless arguments about this. I exploded on him, even. Messily. Over Skype earlier.
blastyoboots: auugh
blastyoboots: I’m on my dash, and scrolling past your enormous arguments with the obsessed, wrong-evidence “rosekan is canon” guy
blastyoboots: can’t you PLEASE not lump me in with that damn guy?
blastyoboots: I acknowledge how little evidence there is, dude
blastyoboots: though I don’t go to your extreme extent and discount the whopper we got in the latest flash as basically meaningless :T
blastyoboots: I’m still not sure if you’re exaggerating when you talk about it meaning “jack shit”?
blastyoboots: it’s not incontrovertible evidence, it does not confirm it as canon, and there are explanations for the sum total of events in that flash that aren’t “they’re in a relationship”
blastyoboots: but it’s hard not to see that those non-relationship explanations are in the minority, by which I DON’T MEAN THE VAST MINORITY!
blastyoboots: I mean something as clean as 60/40 relationship on its own, if you disregard most prior evidence
blastyoboots: (which it isn’t hard to do)
blastyoboots: furthermore, it’s my OPINION that the narrative flow has been toward relationship, and is still toward relationship
blastyoboots: and it’s your OPINION that the lack of romantic decision conflict is too glaring for them to be confirmed to be in a relationship this way, that something must be wrong
blastyoboots: but you can’t say it’s almost meaningless, in the same way that I’d be a fool to say it’s canon!
blastyoboots: I’ve been very reasonable and evenhanded throughout these arguments, and if I didn’t know any better I’d say that YOU’RE the one who comes off as someone with shipping goggles welded so hard onto their face that you can see your cheekbones past the deluge of blood
blastyoboots: you know what, I’m posting this on tumblr
blastyoboots: YOU WANTED IT, I STARTED IT! B)
And I admit, I overreacted. I was just angry because of the context, seeing him berate someone saying it was confirmed, and compare him to me as a strawman. It’s infuriating how he knows exactly where to touch me to drive me wild.
Boots do you see this? This is the sort of bedfellow you’re making for yourself right now.
Now, back to the issue at hand. I’ve laid out the way I see it worked out from an objective point of view, and I don’t see how you’d say much otherwise.
Now, from a subjective, more meta view - and past this point, I don’t fault Vex for disagreeing with anything/everything - it’s my personal opinion that the above scene put Rose/Kanaya far over the edge. I don’t think the scene’s canon inclusion has any other “safe” use or intent.
Why?
It’s complicated. And very subjective: It’s based on a subjective read of Andrew Hussie himself.
Let me paste you an excerpt of Andrew’s tweets on class roles, in response to an argument that he was introducing gender bias (with destruction and the master active class allocated to males only, and females receiving the most passive master class):
@TheBookOfBeth point was, scale overall is quite balanced, shading slightly male/active. ideal? no. but far from an essentialist nightmare
Now, Vex has disagreed with me before on this. When I saw these, I used them to argue that Andrew intended the 12 standard classes to have a 3-active, 3-passive split for each (flexible) gender leaning. Vex argued that it could easily be 4-active 2-passive for male, 2-active 4-passive for female, and that I was stupid and disgustingly liberal for projecting otherwise onto Andrew.
Of course, much like Porrim and Kankit, it’s difficult to tell whether he honestly thought that, or just formed that opinion to oppose and get a rise out of me. <3<
But I think I’ve read something out of Andrew over the course of the comic, and through tweets like this. And that thing is that I believe he intends to tell a relatively progressive story, with things like Homestuck. To wit:
I believe Andrew intends there to be at least one naturally developing, serious homosexual relationship between main characters that isn’t just played for laughs. I believe Rose/Kanaya is the only romantic arc that’s long or decent enough to qualify. And, for what it’s conceivably worth to Andrew, I think he knows there would be intense outrage if the only serious, natural homosexual relationship between main characters were teased strongly, then shut down with no strong alternative.
It’d be - ugh, I know Vex is going to want to choke me for this, call me a braindead oversensitive social justice something something - if Andrew did that, it’d be almost as if the story were making a silent referendum against homosexual relationships. ._. Andrew doesn’t think that, I’m not accusing Andrew of intending that and never would. I just don’t think he could avoid it at least looking like that if he did, and nobody knows that fact clearer than he does. That’s not a message he wants to give with his story, intentionally or unintentionally, I think.
Gamzee/Dirk is going to be mostly humorous. Kanaya/Rose is only sufficient remaining one.
(Thus, their romantic arc’s eventual conflict would predicate on whether or not Kanaya and/or Rose would survive or remain physically together; Kanaya may face a decision to choose between Rose and the resurrection of the troll race, or the like.)
I mean… imagine if after this heavy a tease, Rose/Kanaya were killed by an admission of heterosexuality on Rose’s part, Kanaya had nothing to look forward to but a weak relationship with Vriska (or even just post-relationship death!), and the only other main gay relationship (Gamzee/Dirk) was the type to be pointed at in laughter. Wouldn’t that feel like a kick in the gut to… well, anyone who relates to homosexual relationships in the slightest?
That’s the reason their relationship has been so slow to have hints introduced, so relatively 'tame’ and non-contentious. Past a certain point of hinting, it’s very difficult to roll this back, or have things go any differently.
That’s the way I see it. From this subjective point of view, Rose/Kanaya is well over the line.
Does that sound like I have really, really tightly screwed shipping goggles twisting my objective judgment?! I don’t think so! >:T
I just realized that the blinking light on Serenity’s stomach is in the shape of a white swirl
and that swirl looks very similar to the white one pictured in the drawing on Calliope’s wall
which is theorized to be an image of Lord English in addition to more obviously being a picture of the red sun being sucked into the black hole Caliborn creates
and let’s not forget that the one person Serenity attaches herself to and leaves with in the dream bubble is Roxy, the only one who knows how to awaken Calliope and potentially defeat LE if he and Caliborn end up being the same person
(also I think it’s kind of interesting that Roxy has a swirl in her hair, as well)
Idk man, perhaps Serenity plays a role in all of this stuff with the cherubs and LE?
PLEASE click in the Orginal post so you can under stand my point better.
In the resent update it is stated that calliope’s spirit still live on somewhere in the furthest ring and is hiding from her brother Lord English.
so far calliope is the only cherub with swirls on her checks for her regular appearance (yes caliborn has them to but for like a few seconds)
seen here:
compared to her brother (and possible lil’ cal)
my theory is that calliope’s spirit rests/took form as something else in order to disguised herself from her brother.
We don’t know were serenity came from,We don’t know why she’s there or how she got there. Serenity isn’t even even the firefly’s name it was given to her by VW on a whim.
what we do know is that she was found in a piece of amber by the mayor.
She was also implied to be specifically a girl
when we first meet her she really doesn’t have a reason to be there
we all ready know characters in the story have some meaning to them there not “just there” they have a point and purpose to be there
we have yet to find that out about serenity yet
another point is that when they meetup serenity went straight for roxy
why would she do that, unless she recognized her from somewhere else.
now hear me out what if that white swirl drawing wasn’t a foreshadow to lord English what if it was for calliope of what was going to happen to her in the future.
The white swirl, Serenity, and Roxy are all related in some way right well…
now lets and the fact that calliope’s spirit is serenity.
Now it all comes together
point in case Calliope is safe atop Roxy’s head
I’m going to keep reblogging this
…Hmm! I suppose that might be where her ghost is hiding, somehow tied to Serenity. (Not necessarily her mind/personality, though!)
Andrew wouldn’t have planned it quite that early, but I can see him retroactively seeing to that having been the case. I’d chalk this up to an extremely interesting ‘maybe’. :)
Also, the fact that finding Calliope’s ghost is now important may bring us a vector for the “unfathomable destruction” Vriska has yet to cause, Vex and I were thinking. As a ghost, she might be able to find her (as was LE and Doc’s intent by arranging her death)? Or perhaps, kill or out her ghost? Or in this theory’s case, something to do with Serenity?
And come to think of it… who supplanted Serenity in WV’s dream? ::::)
EDIT: And, of course, direhuman notes that she’s the Thief of Light. Who more fitting to harm Serenity?
I’ve been working with a very nice gentleman known as Jedediah Long - the fellow who donated ten thousand dollars to the Kickstarter - on improving the troll that he is preparing to give Andrew in order to include in the comic. These are the sprites we’ve managed to wrangle out, with the generous horn-help of finepoint (tajazzled)!
More amazing art by amazing people, on this theory! I admit, I never took the next step and considered the two having to confront their daughter’s death like that, but it would work even if a substantial relationship between the two never actually materialized.
So blastyoboots was telling me about the quadrant sprite theory thing and it was so hilarious so I made this. It could use some work, like maybe looking a bit more like rose but I tried and that’s what counts?? Flashing sprite could be found here, epiliepsy warning though.
oh dammit this means I have to explain this to you all don’t i
QUADRANT SPRITE THEORY
Here are my past three (outdated) posts/reblogs on the Quadrant-Sprites theory that was going around months ago:
And now, the skinny on it, updated with my latest thoughts. It wasn’t originally mine, but the unholy abomination you see in the above image was my idea:
blastyoboots: anyway, the quadrant sprite stuff:
>TAVRISPRITE: sHUT UUUUUUUUP,
>TAVRISPRITE: i H8 YOU BOTH, I h8te, EVERYTHING.
>TAVRISPRITE: I h8te, the way, i FALTERINGLY, sPEAK OUT, my jum8led, tHOUGHTS,
>TAVRISPRITE: i H8, hOW i DRAAAAAAAAG OUT, tHE THINGS, I say, sOMETIMES,
>TAVRISPRITE: I don’t even know, wHICH PARTS OF MYSELF, aRE H8TING, which things????????
blastyoboots: the theory goes that, well… an unusual amount of Tavrisprite’s short screentime, narrative focus, was placed on the above
blastyoboots: so there’s something special, perhaps, about the fact that Tavrisprite hated everything?
blastyoboots: and it can also be noted that not only were Vriska and Tavros indicative of somewhat of a (never quite realized) black relationship
blastyoboots: but also, John and his blue color in the sprite are associated with spades, the shirt John was wearing when he was younger
ShoySlayer: Ohhh
blastyoboots: the idea is thus: Tavrisprite was an androgynous male/female combination (alluding to Calliope/Caliborn) sprite of dead trolls, representing the black quadrant
blastyoboots: so perhaps we’ll see the other trolls fill the others?
blastyoboots: a heartsprite, a diamondsprite, a clubsprite
ShoySlayer: A clubsprite would be so fucked u—
blastyoboots: in similarly male/female combined fashion
ShoySlayer: is gamzee gonna make the clubsprite kanaya-eridan’s lower body-eridan’s upper body
blastyoboots: worse, actually, but I’ll get to that
blastyoboots: anyway, this whole thing also happens to play into the idea of Gamzee creating Calliope/Caliborn with a male/female combination ectobiologically, or at least it mirrors it
blastyoboots: but on to the sprites:
blastyoboots: the moirailsprite would almost certainly be Nepeta and Equius
ShoySlayer: It WAS the only stable moirailigence around
blastyoboots: they also foreshadowed it possibly
blastyoboots: by roleplaying as each other
ShoySlayer: So the diamondsprite would be more or less stable?
blastyoboots: only issue is: Equius is permagone, so if they were thrown into a sprite, you’d likely get mostly Nepeta with some of Equius’s physicality
blastyoboots: (possibly roleplaying to be more Equius-like without knowing there’s little equius in there)
blastyoboots: yeah, the idea is that all the sprites besides Kismesisprite/Tavrisprite would be stable
blastyoboots: and not blow themselves up out of self disgust
ShoySlayer: Yeah
ShoySlayer: What would be the heartsprite though?
blastyoboots: sorry, I was multi-tasking, didn’t get to keep rambling right away :)
blastyoboots: the matesprite (heh) would be Sollux and Feferi quite possibly
blastyoboots: and dead body wise, that leaves Eridan without anyone to pair up with
blastyoboots: which is very fitting
blastyoboots: but Eridan wouldn’t be alone in the Auspistisprite
ShoySlayer: ……
ShoySlayer: is it gonna be the dirk head
blastyoboots: no
blastyoboots: you see, Nepeta and Equius have to be in the green sprite, associated with Jade and diamonds
blastyoboots: and Sollux and Feferi would be in the red sprite, associated with Dave and hearts (which is Dirk’s, fitting)
blastyoboots: leaving Eridan in Roxy’s purple sprite
blastyoboots: and Roxy just so happens
blastyoboots: to be carrying a bottle of alpha-kid-Rose-goo around for possible prototyping
ShoySlayer: …oh god
blastyoboots: yep
blastyoboots: likely, alpha kid Rose wouldn’t have figured out much about the future or the game, so you’d have Rose’s personality and demeanor thrown in without any helpful knowledge
blastyoboots: and let’s not get started on the thematics, the potential Roxy + Eridan conversation/interaction already had before this, etc
ShoySlayer: i’m just gonna draw that because it’s really hilarious in my head
AUSPISTISPRITE - PURPLE: Eridan && Young Alpha!Rose
Rose’s careful self-awareness and inquisitive, reasonable nature, combined with Eridan’s comedic absolute anti-awareness and staunch refusal to understand objective reality… I can’t really say what sort of individual would result! Although, it’s a fair bet that the club quadrant would be a personality theme.
so john has (presumably) fallen asleep in his driveway
you know who else used to fall asleep at random times?
jade.
however, it wasn’t due to narcolepsy. it was actually Vriska practicing influencing the kids.
so what if
john
is actually
under
vriska’s influence
also this may or may not be a coincidence but
in the last one with john there are eight exclamation marks
There are three places there, actually. Eight Rs in the second quote, eight Os in the third quote, and eight !s in the fourth quote. (Which is why the original poster quoted those specifically!)
GT: Haha the situation is really pretty funny when you think about it. GG: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! GG: Yeaaaaaaaah……….
And count the “FUCK"s:
Now, keep in mind, Jane’s mistake was one that she could have easily made on her own, flustered-teen-ways. That’s obvious, and Andrew confirms as much; in fact, if it wasn’t her natural reaction, then the Auto Responder wouldn’t have been able to precalculate it beforehand.
However, that doesn’t mean Vriska wasn’t interfering. Jane might have made the mistake anyway, but perhaps Vriska exacerbated it? (Or the AR knows yet more things it’s not supposed to know.)
That’s a thing that may or may not be true. But with John? Well, here, it’s far more likely. Especially given how he’s suddenly asleep in his driveway, something that doesn’t quite normally happen to anyone except younger Jade. (Especially not immediately after convulsing in rage.)
And anyway, it’s Year Two. If he doesn’t get at least a hint of Vriska now, there’s no way he’ll have the mullet he needs by Year Three. (Though, he knows by now that white eyes mean ‘dead’, so if he sees her…)
Just keep in mind: This may be Vriska’s doing. And if it is, her hand (and Tavros’s?) may be in earlier events like Jane’s as well.
Now, bear with me again. This is one of those theories that you think of when you’re first reading the comic, then say “nahhh, that’s stupid” as a speculator and in the face of evidence, ‘obvious'ness… but now that we have a gigantic pile of empirical role-framework to use to understand Homestuck, we can finally take a second look and say “hmmm”.
Rose inverted her role, wielding the Void aspect in lieu of Light.LilDurandal has a post on this, and so did AhPoorDogsbody (though I can’t find his) about all the void symbolism; it’s clear, blatant, almost spelled out by UU, and those who’ve been following me have seen me reference it often. It’s evidence of clear dichotomies between aspects, and future inversions to come.
Pictured above is the page immediately after “Seer: Ask.”, where Rose goes fully grimdark. Not only is there obfuscation we now associate with Void, but note: Why did Andrew cut to Kanaya re-viewing this in this manner, for only two pages before cutting back to Rose? To show the above symbolism, Kanaya viewing Rose through the cracked dark shades of a Hero of Void!
UU: player abilities may also manifest in ways in defiance with their aspects if they are heavily resistant to their trUe calling. or, if corrUpted in some way by an oUtside inflUence.
TT: And while I’m at it, I should discard these useless wands, because apparently the power was in my little black heart all along. Is that right?
Furthermore, while Grimdark, Rose’s text was garbled into faux-Lovecraftian incomprehensibility… much like Roxy’s text is littered with typos and often difficult to understand while she submits to alcohol. This is because Void is the aspect which obfuscates information!
(In fact, the Horrorterrors might only have been tangentially involved in her power! Skaia embodies Light and the Horrorterrors embody Void; when Doc tricked Rose into asking what the Horrorterrors’ motives were, the cueball might have answered literally with raw “VOID”, plunging her into the wellspring of her own inverted abilities!)
But what if aspects aren’t the only role elements with dichotomies?
Create - Maid - Sylph
Destroy - Prince - Bard
Destroy/Create is an obvious dichotomy, the male class subtracting from/using their aspect, while the female class uses theirs to add, repair, and heal. But the others follow dichotomies, too:
Steal - Thief - Rogue
Exploit - Knight - Page
Steal/Exploit makes a great deal of sense. The Exploit classes, like the Knight, make the very most of the limited amount of their aspect they have (or encourage others to do the same). The classes that 'Steal’ are much less about use, and more about redistribution, moving amounts and levels of the aspect from place to place and person to person!
And for the last pair, I’m going to do something unusual and quote something called - heh - the Serenity Prayer:
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference.
To understand your aspect and to control and change it could be said to be a dichotomy. Analyzing it on paper on a broad scale, as opposed to getting your hands dirty in a specific instance. Hence, we have Know/Change.
The point is that what happened to Rose doesn’t add up on its own.
The Seer is a passive class who leverages a comprehensive understanding of their aspect. When Rose went grimdark, she was neither passive nor understanding. The opposite, in fact.
UU: for instance, a hero of life and a hero of doom have aspects as different as can be. UU: bUt if their classes are different enoUgh as well, that is, one active and the other passive, remarkably there is a chance they coUld end Up with very similar abilities!
So was it the aspect alone that was inverted? What else changed? Rose’s weaponized, aggressive Void-assaulting demeanor was that of the opposite of a Seer, understanding traded for power. An active “understanding” class, like a Mage, would have operated on comprehension of Void, not simply slung it around, right?
What does this theory predict for the other beta kids, whose roles and aspects we know best?
Jade inverts to a Seer of Time, Dave to a Rogue of Space, and John to a Mage of Blood.
Jade is totally a Seer of Time at the beginning of the story when she’s being passive because she cut-off and limited. Perfect for her.
Dave and his flashstep feel good for space powers, actually — that kind of motion works with either time or space powers. I don’t think he’s properly inverted himself, but if he ends up trapped or broken somehow, this theory predicts he’d be trying to build safe spaces for the people around him. A defeated Knight retreats to a fortress, that works surprisingly well too.
John’s turning himself inside out right now, so on this theory, his latest breakdown should give us a look at mage and blood. He’s furious about Jade and Dave’s breakup and he’s decided that friendship, rather than romance, makes the emotional climax of Con Air. This works great with bladekindeyeware’s theory that Blood is the aspect of relationships,especially leadership, unity, and friendships.
What would the mage aspect contribute? The active aspect of knowledge, so information taken for oneself, used consciously. Any ideas?
The idea that the blood part came to him through understanding is enough, if this incident could be said to apply. (And I think it sort of could!)
John, a Breath player whose aspect is partially associated with freedom, is trapped like wind contained inside a box with nowhere to go; he’s feeling suffocated without a direction. So, he becomes frustrated, turning away from the concept of passively going along with events, and turns to Blood (a little; he’s not going to fully invert). The Mage understands his/her aspect, and John finally understood that Con Air is corny.
Many players ghost the opposite of their role, especially when frustrated. It’s a natural part of the power laid at their command as heroes.
What’s very interesting is those who we may see eventually fully invert their roles in the future. Specifically, Jane Crocker, the Maid of Life, who - according to the scheme I outlined - would be akin to a Bard of Doom.
What if Rage was the opposite of Heart? Since, well, Rage symbolizes blackrom and Heart symbolizes redrom.
That’s different from aspect dichotomies, as they relate to the unfolding of reality.
Heart was said by UU, in canon, to represent the ‘soul’. As an effect on the shape of reality, this clearly means that Heart represents how an individual’s characteristics, their inclinations and uniqueness - which can be forceful enough to span even timeline resets, as the kids’ pre- and post-scratch personalities showed - impact how events, lives, universes, and Paradox Space unfold. Love can be considered a part of this, but only part!
From this definition, Mind is the hands-down pair for Heart. The Mind aspect entails the façade one presents to the world, one’s appearance being distinct from one’s true nature, and how individual decisions and logic change the direction in which reality unfolds.
Both aspects are operating in the exact same arena - the impact of the whole of an individual on the alpha timeline - and yet they operate on opposed, balanced concepts. It’s a clear dichotomy.
It’s also why you see Dirk Strider, a hero whose role entails the destruction of Heart, dedicating his being to a flawless Bro façade (Mind) and encouraging his overskeptical, overbelieving, or overdrunk friends to dampen their idiosyncrasies (Heart) in favor of level-headed, logical normalcy (Mind), even as he fuels his persona with the unshaking determination and certainty of every ounce of his soul (Heart)!
Eridan was fueled by Hope to be rather hopeless, and Dirk is fueled by Heart to seem nearly heartless. Princes are rather contradictory. :)
Theoretically - very theoretically, we’re in uncertain theory-territory here - you could say Rage is only a couple 'steps’ away, though… Many of these aspects sound like they should be 'next’ to each other, if they were laid out (opposites across from each other) in a circle. Heart would be next to Blood, for example (for obvious literal reasons), and Blood in turn might be next to Rage, the former dealing (partially) with suffering to match the latter’s hopelessness? (You can look at trolls and kids who are close to each other relationship-ways for much of this, using shipping as clues!) Or, Doom might serve as the neighbor to Blood and/or Rage, though I’m certain that Time and Doom are obvious neighbors… And keep in mind that the opposing elements would be neighbors too. If Heart and Blood are neighbors/'sisters’, so are Breath and Mind, the aspect of direction and the aspect of choice. Light and Space seem like they’d be related, so by extension, Void and Time would be sisters too, which makes plenty of sense.
And they could be said to affect Prospit/Derse leaning, too, based on the circle… it would make sense if the half of the circle containing the necessarily always-Derse Time aspect would lean Derse, while the always-Prospit Space aspect’s half leaned Prospit?
Again, neighboring aspects - an aspect circle - is on shaky ground and very unproven. You’re working on much more tenuous and subjective ground than with dichotomies, and nobody has a really good idea of what order these would go in.
But if I had to take a second stab at it, and don’t assume this is right, it’s just a guess…
In fact, that almost certainly isn’t right. Rage is nowhere near Blood, it feels like the drives and passion entailed by Blood and Breath should be neighbors of Life and Hope… really, the whole chart makes only a shred of cursory sense, ignore it. :P
EDIT: Wait, that’s odd…
When you combine two of these aspects that are two apart, you get the aspect between them! Look at the outside words:
When you combine Mind’s Choice and Rage’s “Resignation” (the constriction of visible possibilities), you get a single Direction, or Breath!
When you combine Resignation and the passage/view of Time in Progression, you get Pessimism/Doom. When you take the unpredictable Soul and try to track it over Time, you get Mystery. When you combine positive energy to affect reality (Life) with the concept of information, you get Reality’s literal fabric, Space. When you combine Unity and Optimism, you get Belief, like the religion that sprung around the Sufferer…
Theoretically - very theoretically, we’re in uncertain theory-territory here - you could say Rage is only a couple ‘steps’ away, though… Many of these aspects sound like they should be 'next’ to each other, if they were laid out (opposites across from each other) in a circle. Heart would be next to Blood, for example (for obvious literal reasons), and Blood in turn might be next to Rage, the former dealing (partially) with suffering to match the latter’s hopelessness? (You can look at trolls and kids who are close to each other relationship-ways for much of this, using shipping as clues!) Or, Doom might serve as the neighbor to Blood and/or Rage, though I’m certain that Time and Doom are obvious neighbors… And keep in mind that the opposing elements would be neighbors too. If Heart and Blood are neighbors/'sisters’, so are Breath and Mind, the aspect of direction and the aspect of choice. Light and Space seem like they’d be related, so by extension, Void and Time would be sisters too, which makes plenty of sense.
And they could be said to affect Prospit/Derse leaning, too, based on the circle… it would make sense if the half of the circle containing the necessarily always-Derse Time aspect would lean Derse, while the always-Prospit Space aspect’s half leaned Prospit?
Again, neighboring aspects - an aspect circle - is on shaky ground and very unproven. You’re working on much more tenuous and subjective ground than with dichotomies, and nobody has a really good idea of what order these would go in.
But if I had to take a second stab at it, and don’t assume this is right, it’s just a guess…
[IMAGE ABOVE]
WOW THAT TOOK A LONG TIME TO 'SHOP
In fact, that almost certainly isn’t right. Rage is nowhere near Blood, it feels like the drives and passion entailed by Blood and Breath should be neighbors of Life and Hope… really, the whole chart makes only a shred of cursory sense, ignore it. :P
EDIT: Wait, that’s odd…
When you combine two of these aspects that are two apart, you get the aspect between them! Look at the outside words:
When you combine Mind’s Choice and Rage’s “Resignation” (the constriction of visible possibilities), you get a single Direction, or Breath!
When you combine Resignation and the passage/view of Time in Progression, you get Pessimism/Doom. When you take the unpredictable Soul and try to track it over Time, you get Mystery. When you combine positive energy to affect reality (Life) with the concept of information, you get Reality’s literal fabric, Space. When you combine Unity and Optimism, you get Belief, like the religion that sprung around the Sufferer…
(EDIT: Hypothetically, there’s another fun facet to this aspect chart. The aspects closer to Space (the top half) are closer to Creation, and the aspects closer to Time (the bottom half) are closer to Destruction.Space and Time are the pure representatives of creation and destruction, respectively. Heart and Mind are directly in between, theoretically, because every individual has the capacity in them for BOTH creation and destruction.)
I’ve revised the image to something that makes a lot more sense, but first let’s quote the original…
Theoretically - very theoretically, we’re in uncertain theory-territory here - you could say Rage is only a couple ‘steps’ away, though… Many of these aspects sound like they should be ‘next’ to each other, if they were laid out (opposites across from each other - the opposite aspect dichotomies have already been well established, if you click the link) in a circle. Heart would be next to Blood, for example (for obvious literal reasons), and Blood in turn might be next to Rage, the former dealing (partially) with suffering to match the latter’s hopelessness? (You can look at trolls and kids who are close to each other relationship-ways for much of this, using shipping as clues!) Or, Doom might serve as the neighbor to Blood and/or Rage, though I’m certain that Time and Doom are obvious neighbors… And keep in mind that the opposing elements would be neighbors too. If Heart and Blood are neighbors/’sisters’, so are Breath and Mind, the aspect of direction and the aspect of choice. Light and Space seem like they’d be related, so by extension, Void and Time would be sisters too, which makes plenty of sense.
And they could be said to affect Prospit/Derse leaning, too, based on the circle… it would make sense if the half of the circle containing the necessarily always-Derse Time aspect would lean Derse, while the always-Prospit Space aspect’s half leaned Prospit?
Again, neighboring aspects - an aspect circle - is on shaky ground and very unproven. You’re working on much more tenuous and subjective ground than with dichotomies, and nobody has a really good idea of what order these would go in.
But if I had to take a second stab at it, and don’t assume this is right, it’s just a guess…
[CIRCLE REVISION #1 IMAGE]
WOW THAT TOOK A LONG TIME TO ‘SHOP
In fact, that almost certainly isn’t right. Rage is nowhere near Blood, it feels like the drives and passion entailed by Blood and Breath should be neighbors of Life and Hope… really, the whole chart makes only a shred of cursory sense, ignore it. :P
EDIT: Wait, that’s odd…
When you combine two of these aspects that are two apart, you get the aspect between them! Look at the outside words:
When you combine Mind’s Choice and Rage’s “Resignation” (the constriction of visible possibilities), you get a single Direction, or Breath!
When you combine Resignation and the passage/view of Time in Progression, you get Pessimism/Doom. When you take the unpredictable Soul and try to track it over Time, you get Mystery. When you combine positive energy to affect reality (Life) with the concept of information, you get Reality’s literal fabric, Space. When you combine Unity and Optimism, you get Belief, like the religion that sprung around the Sufferer…
Hmm!
Vexarian (love ‘im or hate 'im) helped me come up with a revised chart that makes a whole lot more sense. (…mostly hate 'im, but he’s good at spec)
Vexarian: I find it interesting how most of the main ships seem to be between people very far on the scale.
blastyoboots: mhmm
blastyoboots: but for flings, the little unfulfilled or minor/side relationships he needs to fill the gaps with?
blastyoboots: they were easy choices
blastyoboots: pick the ones that are naturally next to each other, and spice the plot w/ em
Neighbors and opposites in this circle are often used for ships, relatives, et cetera. Depending on how early Andrew might have had the aspects and their pairs in mind - likely before he finalized active/passive classes - he might have used them, which he at least knew during Hivebent, to pick and choose relationships to work into the plot. Aradia is sandwiched between Doom and Void, for instance.
There’s also a really nice T-pattern going on! Note that Time (Dave) is in a triangle between Space and Mind, and Breath (John) is in a triangle between Light and Void (Roxy).
But, er, anyway, shipping aside… it’s very nice to see which elements are perpendicular. Knowing and perceiving, the information-focused aspects, are the 'foil’ of those classes dealing with the paths and directions around which groups unite or individuals quest. The physical realm, Time and Space, are 'foiled’ by the impacts of the individual. Faith and conception of the possibilities open to reality is a 'foil’ of Life and Doom, the boundaries that determine who does and doesn’t get a say in reality.
The revised aspects also make more sense for that concept of combining neighboring aspects to form a given aspect. Information resides at the confluence of Belief and the Fabric of reality, ideas given evidence on which to ground. The enthusiasm to pursue a Direction, tempered by the cruel understanding of what cannot be done that is Resignation, leads to the realm of logical Choice, the impact of the Mind when it must decide which tough path to pursue. Souls restricted by Pessimism, or otherwise dulled in their potential to impact reality, find comfort and strength in Unity and their shared pain and purpose. When exposed to Information, the unique individual Soul leaps beyond it to Belief and creativity.
On the update. Do you think Karkat is, like John, inverting his role a little? He gives Terezi a sense of direction and purpose as a Rogue of Breath might, and is pretty helpful to Meenah with her course of action. Even just the contrast between John and Karkat’s behavior – John being petulant and Karkat being pretty mature – strongly suggests an inversion.
I thought about that last night and was going to bring it up this morning. It’s more the aspect than anything specifically class-like, though:
Karkat is fed up with his lack of success with Terezi, with people in general, with leadership, and would rather make like a Breath player and fly: fly off into the void like a fucknig piece of gargbage on a suicide mission. A mission is direction, even if it’s suicide; in the absence of leadership and friends (Bloodways), he can at least take solace in that (Breathways).
This is a theory I’ve had for some damn time: Gamzee obtained, raised, and locked in the ectobiological coordinates for Calliope/Caliborn, an ecto-child of Jade Harley, Karkat Vantas, and (optionally) also Lil’ Cal.
Yes, this is a serious theory. And it explains plenty:
EDIT: Added MORE POINTS in smalltext! :D
His use of Aradia’s Timeboxes shows us where Gamzee is hiding on the meteor: Its future! Since it eventually ends up where Calliope and Caliborn are, Gamzee could have wound forward past its entry and exit of the alpha session, free to mess around in peace.
Wherever and whenever Gamzee is hiding, he has to burn three years to match the ages of everyone else. Why not spend those three years raising a cute little skull monster baby who just happened to come down on a meteor? Once the child could fend for itself, Gamzee could have simply rewound back to when the meteor entered the alpha session, joining the others at the same age.
Someone raised Calliope/Caliborn, alchemizing(?) and setting up a bunch of equipment that they clearly do not understand, calling them ‘jujus’. (Separately from the official, timeloopy ‘jujus’.) When you take the timeboxes into account, the voided-out book, and the boxfuls of special stardust the cherubs were left to eat, Gamzee is the clear likelihood for that someone.
Many of Lord English’s features have been explained in Caliborn, but one of the looming mysteries is why he has a tendency to HONK. If Gamzee had raised him, this would be very clear!
A human/troll hybrid has the potential to be very alien, especially if one adds a corrupting element (the optional Cal) to the mix. Of the human/troll hybrids possible, Karkat && Jade makes the most sense given their personalities, symbols, elements of clothing, quirks, and associated colors. They are VERY similar to Karkat and Jade. In fact, it makes so much sense that when UU gave us her first conversation, I had initially surmised that she was a future Jade/Karkat hybrid demi-troll! (While it was eventually ruled out by her seemingly implying she was a troll, before the Cherub reveal, I still found it QUITE suspicious that the Karkat similarities were brought out in full force with her brother.)
ROMSPEC DISCLAIMER: A Karkat && Jade ectochild is NO INDICATION that Karkat/Jade will be a final pairing. In fact, it might mean the opposite, serving as the ‘resolution’ / ‘cashing-in’ of all the romantic foreshadowing between the two, and other odd coincidences like that BARK/KRAB/BRAKA code.
Why would Karkat and Jade be chosen? Why, because of Gamzee, of course! Do recall that someone locked in the ectobiological coordinates for John in his session, presumably one of the guardians. If Gamzee serves as that someone for Calliope and Caliborn by getting into their session… why, perhaps while lurking around in the background and watching everyone pre-horrorstuck, Gamzee had observed Karkat warming up to Jade? And perhaps, in his infinite wisdom whimsy, he decided it would be great if they had children? Hm? :)
Caliborn is clearly a young Lord English. Calliope is rather set to make an incredible sacrifice with her death, possibly facilitating the creation of all of Paradox Space. As the individual responsible for the existence and nature of these two(ish) individuals, Gamzee would cement his position as the most important character in Homestuck!
EDIT:ADDITIONAL POINTS:
Boltstuck added some wonderful evidence: ”We know that Andrew likes to borrow from his past works; Gamzee has already shown parallels to “Whistles: The Starlight Calliope” and there’s a good chance of Caliborn/Calliope’s origins being another call-back. — The comic centers around the titular Whistles, an innocent and well-meaning clown who’s unfailingly loyal to his evil Master and goes into brutal, violent rages when said Master is hurt or threatened. His Master is “unkillable” in that every time he is slain, a new version of him is spawned. Much like with Lord English’s multiple incarnations. Toward the end of the story, Whistles’s two fellow clowns find a way to prevent the respawning - but not before an infant version of the Master survives the attack and convinces Whistles to adopt and care for it.”
According to UU: “UU: my species has never even had a home planet.” Never?! Life and sentience require rich diversity and millions of years to evolve. Cherubs couldn’t have evolved in the void, with nothing… therefore, it’s most likely that they had a shortcut. Andrew is implying that Cherubs were ectobiologized as a race, their initial seed population growing to spread throughout the universe. And thus, they almost certainly had an external DNA source from at least one other sentient race.
Calliope and Caliborn have troll-like blood color variety, indicating trolls as a source race. However, they have no horns - only human-like skulls - and their white-irised eyes are quite human as well. Therefore, it isn’t hard to surmise that Gamzee combined a human and a troll; almost certainly a boy and a girl, to mirror the combining of them into an androgynous body (like he’s been doing with the likes of Tavrisprite), mirror normal m/f reproduction, and mirror the :o) and Do: mirthful messiahs that Gamzee once said were him all along.
The boy component is Karkat, hands down. Caliborn is unbelievably similar to him, his perfect kismesis even: Like Karkat, but worse in every way, incredibly powerful, and evil. And Karkat’s listed position is even in the exact spot between his friends that Lime would have been on the spectrum; his blood and Lime-colored blood might have been no more than a gene-swap away in the first place!
Jade is a bit tricker a choice, with circumstantial evidence like the colors, or Calliope’s symbol’s main component being a tower that looks like Jade’s house surrounded by snakes (echidna), et cetera. But it becomes incredibly clear by process of elimination: Jade is the only plausible human girl Gamzee would have known and chosen, and no other human girl fits the symbolism well enough!
And finally, there’s the narrative text here that was addressed at Jade as she stared through the fourth wall at LE’s jacket: ”But you don’t know it’s a coat. That would only invite more questions. You don’t know what it shields. Nor do you know whose shoulders it was meant to cover. If you knew that - if you even knew his name - you would understand terror no human ever has.” But that’s strange, since “Caliborn” doesn’t do the trick! So, if this name alone is supposed to inspire terror in Jade specifically… Think about it for a moment. Were Gamzee to create a Harley-Vantas ectochild, what do you suppose he’d make its last and/or middle names to fit? :D Even if Jade doesn’t know LE’s true nature, from a name like that alone (with parts of Karkat and Jade’s names blatantly in it), I think Andrew could credibly claim that no human has ever understood the terror of having unexpectedly sired a child with a grumpy alien!
Am I right, or am I right? :D
(Gamzee and Caliborn in the image arted up by my awesome friend doridachi! Click here for a larger version of the gif.) EDIT: I fixed the eyes I forgot to animate on the gif; the larger-version link will still link to the right one on all of them!
In other words, the first part of this theory is almost assuredly canon: Gamzee raised Caliborn and Calliope, likely too early for them to remember him.
What remains to be seen is their ectobiological components, which Gamzee was almost assuredly in a position to set. If you read this theory and its linked follow-up addendums, the running supposition is that those components were most likely Jade Harley &&Karkat Vantas &&Abraxas, and optionally && Lil’ Cal or some other unknown component.
Light is information? What does information have to do with having all the luck?
Anonymous
Our first hint was from Jaspersprite, and it’s been communicated to us obscurely from there:
JASPERSPRITE: Rose im just a cat and i dont know much but i know that youre important and also you are what some people around here call the Seer of Light. JASPERSPRITE: And you dont know what that means but you will see its all tied together! JASPERSPRITE: All the life in the ocean and all the shiny rain and the songs in your head and the letters they make. JASPERSPRITE: A beam of light i think is like a drop of rain or a long piece of yarn that dances around when you play with it and make it look enticing! JASPERSPRITE: And the way that it shakes is the same as what makes notes in a song! JASPERSPRITE: And a song i think can be written down as letters. JASPERSPRITE: So if you play the right song and it makes all the right letters then those letters could be all the letters that make life possible. JASPERSPRITE: So all you have to do is wake up and learn to play the rain!
Light represents the codes and information in reality, encoded by purposeful entities to communicate, control, and enact upon existence. Space is just an arrangement of particles, divested from the purpose behind their order; Light represents just that purpose, what it’s meant to convey or accomplish… and for whom.
If you don’t believe me, just look at Void, its counterpart:
UU: its heroes preside over the essence of lack, or nothingness. the obfUscation of knowledge, or its oUtright destrUction.
It deals, in a large part, with obfuscation! That necessarily equates Light with information and its purpose and perception, Light with Sight.
Skaia, leveraging its omniscience, prearranges events by inspiring players and carapaces with its clouds. Through this, it encodes coincidences in reality in the players’ favor… hence, fortune. (In a lot of ways, Skaia embodies Light.) Furthermore, if you set up a roomful of traps, you’re encoding misfortune in a room, manipulating coincidence so that events do not go in an individual’s favor. And of course, if fortune or information has been carefully arranged, one may negate it through wanton destruction. (The Horrorterrors embody Void.)
Doc Scratch operates through Light, interestingly, both in the aspect’s sense and through its players. He sees and knows on a broad scale, and uses careful communication to manipulate the paths of individuals.
LIGHT and VOID — Light represents fortune, information, sight, and mental clarity. Void represents obfuscation, the destruction of information, and obscuring darkness. When Rose inverts her role by going grimdark, her powers channel Void: Her understanding of events was obscured throughout her descent, and when she finally succumbed, the Void energy around her blacked out all viewports of her and her/dave’s dreamself. This goes beyond destructive power, as even her speech embodied obfuscation, garbled into eldritch gibberish that kept her from communicating with John! Roxy’s drunken, rampant typos also represent a parallel to her obfuscating role. Both of these aspects are similar in their purvey over information and understanding, what is interpreted largely through communication and one’s eyes, and one’s command of options ala fortune and fate, opening or denying possibility.
Sorry if I sound a bit scattered/rambly, I’m kinda sick today. :)
Because I am a firm believer that your personality determines your role in the game. NOT the other way around. If you grow, and evolve, your title may very well do the same. If, hypothetically, Lil Hal had a title (And I do believe he does, but that is a story for another time) then it would likely be different then Dirks, because, while they were originally identical, they have since become two completely different people. And thus, while Dirk is the Prince of Heart, Lil Hal might end up becoming the Knight of Doom, or something else entirely different, do to how much he has changed over a couple of years.
It also happens to tie in nicely into my theory that Johns whole freakout is a leadup to a change of title for him.
Thanks for your enthusiasm!
But… NO!
:)
Your personality does determine your role in the game… but that means your core personality, the one built into your very soul.
In Homestuck, the Scratches have shown us the power of the Heart aspect: the strength of a soul’s uniqueness to help determine how reality unfolds, even across vastly different timelines. Take Dave’s Stiller shades, for example, an inclination that was built into his very personality!
Those souls can be turned against themselves, of course, but this is already accounted for by their role. Role inversion is the (potentially unwise) refuge in which a hero may reside when the role they were assigned - crafted to best suit their very essence - frustrates them. It’s an opposing wellspring of power that exists by the very virtue of their original one.
What you’re seeing with John is more the ghosting of role inversion than of some sort of role ‘shift’ to something completely unrelated. In fact, you saw it in Karkat, too! As an Heir of Breath trapped in a confined space, John has been unable to fly freely or progress, even to amuse himself with his destined quest; as such, he’s ghosted Blood, the aspect of suffering, bonds, and unity. Karkat has been fed up with leading, fed up with his lack of romantic progress, is tired of being let down and hurt so many times, and is thus currently entertaining a reckless display of Breath: abandoning bonds for freedom and quest, flying off into the void like a fucknig piece of gargbage. Everyone is liable to ghost their inverted role from time to time, to varying extents.
Lil’ Hal is an exception. He has a different soul, has an innate nature somewhat at odds with a simple cloning or environment. In nature vs. nurture, here, 'nature’ is solely what determines role, and the Auto Responder is quite clearly only a facsimile of Dirk at this point.
But Lil’ Hal’s not going to gain a player role. No, he’s just going to eventually become Doc Scratch and his iterations. >;]
Taking a moment to appreciate the page on which Vriska reappears.
Hah!
Well, she hasn’t committed the act that causes unfathomable destruction yet, after all. I wonder when she’s going to finally get the hell around to it?
Are you often beset by doubts about whether the villains of the story can truly be overcome, with all their commanding force? That Homestuck is headed toward a “downer ending”, the heroes locked in by the alpha timeline’s absolute inevitability?
Do you feel like you don’t know how the alpha timeline works or is decided, other than the idea that it seemingly works against everything hopeful? Are you mystified by the presence and emergence of stable time loops, and the impenetrable methods via which they paradoxically exist?
Like many of the characters in Homestuck, do you despair that fate is inevitable?
It is. But if you take that at face value, you’re missing the point!
“The point” is why the alpha timeline unfolds the way it does. It’s the concept Homestuck’s characters, and the readers by extension, are teased with constantly, only to reach out and miss grasping it again and again. It’s the moral hammered in by every element of the game, every quest, every long-winded bit of sprite or consort exposition. It’s the core of temporal mechanics, the core of reality’s mechanics. It’s hinted at by hundreds of tiny moments of happenstance and conversation throughout the story, and explains hundreds more once known. It’s the overarching theme of Homestuck, it’s how the heroes can and will win.
And it just so happens to be The Ultimate Riddle.
Under the cut, I’ll walk you through the answer. Fair warning: It takes a while. :)
To help convey this, let’s start with an example; a miniature riddle, if you will:
Imagine that Dave Strider is strolling along pre-scratch on LoWaS, under a cliff, when - SUDDENLY!!! - the cliff starts to collapse, and rocks are raining onto him. He barely has time to realize what’s happening, much less dodge.
If he were to hypothetically get hit by these rocks, it would turn out to cause him some serious bruises and bumps. It’d be a huge, painful pain in the ass, but it would NOT generally interfere with his quest or progress in the session. (In other words, Skaia or the Horrorterrors probably wouldn’t have reason to care, this isn’t a plot-important event.)
Now: What happens is that a future Dave warps in and pushes him out of the way, sparing them both injury. A stable time loop that spares him the inconvenience.
And here’s the question:
Why does that stable time loop exist?
Why couldn’t Dave just have been hit by the rocks, which would have prevented him from going back to save himself the injury without dooming the timeline? Why does reality just so happen to include him successfully executing that stable time loop, instead of having things immutably play out?
And why - and I can guarantee you this, explained later, but I’m telling you now as a hint - is reality almost ensured to have Dave saving himself whenever this sort of thing happens??? (At least, with Dave in his pre-scratch attitude.)
Here’s the wrong answer:
Many of you would say that “Fate” simply said it would be so, and thus Dave experienced the loop and had to obey it.
But why?
Skaia doesn’t care about a couple of hard knocks on the head. Not in this irrelevant, contrived scenario, at least. And neither do the Horrorterrors; in fact, from what we know of them, they might be more than willing to inflict a little bad luck for shits and giggles, but him sparing himself makes that pointless.
So what does that leave? Some arbitrary in-built “destiny” in Paradox Space? Why would it give a damn about this, enough to ensure that Dave will be in a helpful loop every single time something like this happens?
None of those theories explain why the stable time loop (get saved by self from rocks, temporally ensured to go back later and save self) exists in place of the alternative (get hit by rocks, temporally ensured not to go back and save self without dooming).
So what does explain it?
Here’s the right answer:
Dave has participated in countless stable time loops. You saw simple ones in [S] Dave: Accelerate, where he went back during fighting simply to speed things up slightly and collect grist easier. He barely needs to pay attention to his past selves; he just keeps doing what he thinks he’d do, and as long as he’s not intentionally violating causality, there just so happens to be a loop in the alpha timeline where expects it to be.
GG: well youre from the future right? GG: dont you know already if itll work? TG: yeah more or less TG: i never really studied how it went down all that closely TG: i just figured when the time came to sort it out the right thing to do would be obvious TG: like it is now TG: managing the loops is a balance of careful planning and just rolling with your in the moment decisions TG: and trusting they were the ones you were always supposed to make TG: by now im pretty used to having my intuition woven into the fabric of the alpha timeline
The loops are where he would have wanted them to be!
Dave wouldn’t want to be bumped and bruised, and would have been willing and able to come in from the future to forestall that. So, that becomes reality, simply by lieu of the fact that he would’ve given enough of a shit to do it.
In response to this idea - implied in my lead-in ask responses to this topic - the anon who had been questioning me had an objection.
Anonymous asked:
So you’re saying Dave let Jade kill her /because he wanted it to happen/?
Yes, he did!
As I put it with a friend:
12:15:10 AM Legendary: it seems that
12:15:15 AM Legendary: the more attention you pay
12:15:27 AM Legendary: the more your /subconscious/ desires start being the time loops you suffer through
12:15:35 AM Legendary: such as dave watching himself get killed by jack
12:15:47 AM BlastYoBoots: Dave pretty much wanted to get killed by Jack
12:15:58 AM BlastYoBoots: it’s how he wanted to go out, and he was determined to do so
12:16:07 AM Legendary: yes but, until he saw it happen, i don’t think he /knew/ he wanted it
12:16:16 AM BlastYoBoots: there were hints that he did before
12:16:31 AM BlastYoBoots: in his dreams, he imagined escaping his time loops
12:16:39 AM BlastYoBoots: and he wanted to duke it out with Jack
12:16:48 AM BlastYoBoots: his will, added together, resulted in that
Dave, overwhelmed by his insecurities, felt like using death as an escape. And through his desire to at least put up a fight against Jack Noir - an unbeatable foe - he found a ‘heroic’ method of achieving it.
TG: i kept dying TG: there kept being these traps like i would go one way and get my head chopped off TG: or go another way and get stabbed or whatever TG: and every time i died the dream reset itself and i was standing there alive and ready to try to escape again TG: but each time i would be watching myself from the vantage point of a different crow TG: like i was the crow all squawking around in circles like a macabre flapping douche TG: and i would always watch myself try to do something different to dodge the trap but i always ended up dead
[…]
TG: so i kept dying and kept being crows and stuff TG: and then i started to notice something coming from the sky TG: it was this faint eerie singing and i look up and theres nothing there just darkness
[…]
TG: i looked up into the sky TG: didnt see anyone singing TG: but even though the sky was black i could see the sun TG: it was bright as hell even through my shades TG: so i flapped my wings and flew up away to it like a fucking piece of garbage TG: and thats it TT: This doesn’t strike you as an impulse of self destruction? TG: no TG: not in the sense that it was a dark sacrificial zoology mission TG: it was more like somewhere to go besides watching myself die a lot from the vantage of a feathery murder of dumb shitty birds TT: So, if hypothetically you were to accept such a mission, or even insist upon one, it wouldn’t be in the spirit of genuine sacrifice, but of escape?
And at any point after his death, did you see Dave expressing a shred of regret about his course of action?
He doesn’t. He merely says that he wanted to, and then justifies it by claiming it was supposed to happen:
TT: What about why you went to fight Jack? TG: sure TG: i did that TG: because i wanted to TG: and because i was supposed to TT: Are you sure? TG: yeah i saw my future self fighting him so obviously that had to happen or else id be dead anyway TG: without even getting the satisfaction of standing up to him TT: So was your decision a result of desire or obligation? TG: hard to explain TG: with all the time shit going on
[…]
TT: So what about Jade? TG: what TT: You didn’t tell her your expedition with her would result in your death, let alone one she’d inadvertently cause. TT: Or that she’d be stuck with the job of resuscitating you. Did you? TG: what am i really supposed to say TG: hey were gonna hunt frogs til you shoot me through the jack TG: then i die and youve got to make out with me TG: that kind of changes how the whole thing goes doesnt it TT: Not if you’re “supposed to,” right? TG: what does that even mean TT: I guess you’re right. No reason to make an effort to empathize if doing so comes at the price of oblivion. TG: wtf TT: It must be comforting to have your ASPD tacitly supported by predestination. TG: aspd TT: Antisocial personality disorder. TG: oh no TG: this conversation just got bumrushed by a mudslide of fucking awful TT: It wasn’t already awful, believing you might be dead? TG: you dont know anything TG: about what i was feeling or what happened on lofaf
As you can see, Rose is rather skeptical! The Horrorterrors might have primed Dave with the thoughts through his dreams, influenced his preferences and decisions… but his loops in the alpha timeline seem firmly the result of his will.
Anyway, we’re getting a little ahead of ourselves with all this focus on Dave. What about the others? Is it just Dave whose will matters over the alpha timeline?
We’ve seen other players 'create’ loops too, if you think about it. Remember how Vriska saw kids falling asleep over the Trollian viewer at roughly the times at which she would have wanted to put them to sleep, and then did so to complete the loops?
In fact… can you recall a single instance in Homestuck where someone did something to the past solely because causality dictated it, even though they didn’t want to??
If you look carefully, you’ll realize that all the actions into the past involved more-than-willing participation by the players doing so! They didn’t just fulfill the loops because they had to. They wanted to do the thing that happened to fulfill the loop, or even wanted to ensure the result of the loop itself. Even if they misunderstand causality in the first place!
GC: YOU 4SK3D WH4T 1T M34NS TO B3 TH3 S33R OF M1ND TG: yeah TG: and TG: i obviously still dont know GC: OK TH3N 1LL JUST 4SK TH1S GC: HOW MUCH OF YOUR R34L1TY DO YOU TH1NK 1S M4D3 OF WH4TS 1N YOUR M1ND? TG: i dont know sounds like a riddle TG: fuck it ill just say all of it TG: i mean that is the answer right GC: SM4RT4SS >:P GC: 1T 1S NOT 4 R1DDL3, 1T 1S 4 S3R1OUS QU3ST1ON, TH3R3 1S 4 B1G D1FF3R3NC3 D4V3 GC: 1F YOU S33 WH4TS 1N YOUR M1ND CL34RLY 4ND UND3RST4ND TH3 POW3R YOUR THOUGHTS H4V3 GC: TH3N YOU UND3RST4ND R34L1TY WH1L3 3V3RYON3 3LS3 1S RUNN1NG 4ROUND CONFUS3D 4ND 4NGRY 4ND UPS3T GC: B3C4US3 TH3Y TH1NK R34L1TY 1S SOM3TH1NG H4PP3N1NG TO TH3M GC: R4TH3R TH4N SOM3TH1NG TH3Y 4R3 M4K1NG 3V3RY MOM3NT W1TH 3V3RY THOUGHT
Well put, Terezi!
Not understanding the power your will has over reality, of course, has its own consequences on your effect on it.
uu: I GuESS WE’LL JuST HAVE TO SEE. WON’T WE? uu: I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY A DIFFERENT KIND OF SESSION. uu: ONE WHERE THE PLAYERS FIGHT FOR SuPREMACY. RATHER THAN WORK TOGETHER. uu: I THINK THAT IT MuST BE THAT WAY. uu: BECAuSE THAT IS HOW I WANT IT TO BE. uu: AND IF I WANT SOMETHING TO BE TRuE HARD ENOuGH. THEN THAT MAKES IT SLIGHTLY MORE ABSOLuTELY IRREFuTABLE. uu: ARE YOu FEELING ME, FuCKER?
uu: YOu CAN’T. uu: ESCAPE. uu: THE MIIIIIIIIIIILES. TT: Sorry, it’s not going to start being a Thing no matter how much you say it. Give it a rest. uu: NO.
uu: THE MIIIIIIIIIIILES! uu: AAAAAAAAAAAH HAA HAA HAA HEE HEE. uu: “YOu CAN’T ESCAPE THE MILES” IS TOTALLY GOING TO BECOME A THING, CAL! uu: THERE’S NOTHING YOu CAN DO ABOuT IT. BECAuSE YOu’LL BE DEAD! uu: HOOOOOOOOOOO HOO HOO HOO HAA HAA!
I want to clarify 'will’ here, however. It’s not simply 'desire’ I’m referring to; what you wish for alone doesn’t shape reality. (The Ultimate Riddle’s answer isn’t exactly The Secret.) Rather, it’s your natural inclinations that would result in action, and the form said actions would ostensibly take, which would bring about a corresponding stable loop. Jade possessed the will to act to fulfill Skaia’s outlined plan to send her a birthday present from John several birthdays early, and so her cooperation was indeed ordained; if Jade had merely thought Skaia’s ideas were noble without the inclination to carry out its suggestions, Skaia would have needed another willing participant to get things done.
This is the principle governing Dave’s time loops: If Dave would have naturally wanted that loop to exist enough to back it up with its causing action at a later date - without merely being forced to by the loop’s existence alone - then the loop happens to exist, regardless of whether or not he notices the returning future self that represents its pastmost end. People respond to the information they receive in ways that are consistent with their own personalities; we already know that this determines linear reality, so it isn’t much of a stretch to extend it ever so slightly to the metatemporal!
Reality being the result of “how people act” is merely adjusted to “how people would act”. It’s really that simple.
Of course, as the will to act is different from desire, the results may not quite work out as he intended: He may try to prevent something, prompted by misleading information by others, and end up causing it instead, or he may leap to do something he understood he had the power to accomplish (fighting off the thief of Rose’s journal) only to both later and retroactively find - through the discovery of his eager former self’s doomed corpse - that he had miscalculated what he could physically get done.
Moreso than the desires and innate inclinations at its root, will can be redirected, misdirected, and subverted. Though, indeed, the root desires themselves may be dampened or eaten away by misplaced disillusionment and apathy, especially by those who don’t understand how the alpha timeline is truly determined.
Back during an explanation to him and others, Ktalaki asked:
But, on the subject of there not being anyone who participates in stable time loops they wouldn’t have wanted to participate in: Would it be possible for someone to participate in a stable time loop they don’t want to participate in, but not enough that they would will it to happen in some other way?
Apathy can indeed be a motivator to let things play out the way they appear to be playing out. Especially so if there are other wills involved, working to make sure it does happen! The Horrorterrors especially encourage such hesitation in players, on occasion, to further their own ends uninterrupted. Aradia is a huge example: Her carefully arranged death made her malleable, a powerful proxy of the Horrorterrors’ will.
And if no wills work for something to come about, well… the result is just physics, isn’t it? There are no giant self-causing space walruses appearing out of nowhere. External will - and potential 'sources’ for the information that makes them, even if they’re not specifically referenced in the self-causing loop - has to be involved for a loop to come about.
– “Self-Generating” Information –
Which I’ll go into a little more detail about: Self-generating, loop-born information is rather rare in Homestuck, only coming into play under very constrained circumstances.
When ordinary players use the simpler forms of stable time loops, no new, purely self-causing information or objects seem to appear out of the ether. If an original object appeared out of nowhere from the future, players haven’t been shown sending the same original object back to become itself, thus making the object void-born and without a true origin: instead, at some point in the loop the item that was sent back is necessarily misplaced, and a fresh version of it - the “true”, brand-new original - is the one sent back.
Except when it did, on exactly one occasion: The money transfer. Notable about this event is that (1) it was almost certainly ordained heavily by Skaia, the Horrorterrors, and Doc Scratch despite its simple nature, since it’s the mechanism by which they became aware of each others’ existence in the first place and they wouldn’t have done so otherwise, and (2) there was only one piece of self-generating information in the loop, amidst what would normally just have been an arbitrary, variably large amount of money Dave always would have sent. Just one. It was the number 413, and neither player could explain how it got there.
The extremely broad time loops arranged by the major powers, the ones which do contain massive amounts of seemingly self-generated information (such as the ectobiological nature of our heroes, or the frog temple which seeds the game code that creates it), all have plausible sources via which the information might have conceivably been obtained, if not for the loop. The kids are humans, and the trolls are trolls… so couldn’t their genetic makeup have been anything arbitrary instead?
The answer here is that information - and will - is not self-generated by time loops where it appears to be so, but can instead be injected by major powers with the means to source that information. The information needed to construct a human’s code could easily be cobbled together by Skaia on a metatemporal level - seeing as it already omnisciently knows humanity’s makeup, even outside of causality - and also, having been birthed within another instance of Skaia, it’s only natural that the planets in a newborn genesis frog would find loops seeding the game’s code, which the outer game possesses; hence, frog temples appearing on planets via stable loops.
After all, as a counterpart to the Horrorterrors’ embodiment of Void, Skaia is practically the essence of Light…
JASPERSPRITE: Rose im just a cat and i dont know much but i know that youre important and also you are what some people around here call the Seer of Light. JASPERSPRITE: And you dont know what that means but you will see its all tied together! JASPERSPRITE: All the life in the ocean and all the shiny rain and the songs in your head and the letters they make. JASPERSPRITE: A beam of light i think is like a drop of rain or a long piece of yarn that dances around when you play with it and make it look enticing! JASPERSPRITE: And the way that it shakes is the same as what makes notes in a song! JASPERSPRITE: And a song i think can be written down as letters. JASPERSPRITE: So if you play the right song and it makes all the right letters then those letters could be all the letters that make life possible. JASPERSPRITE: So all you have to do is wake up and learn to play the rain!
Not just fortune, but information and agency.
And where that influence makes itself manifest, the arc numbers fill in the self-causing informational gaps, like in that money transfer. 413, 612, 1025, 111. Indicators that unseen actors are competing to make their wills known, that no individual is being inspired by a self-causing thought that they and they alone created, sent back in a stable time loop to clue themselves with something they never would have slightly considered without the self-generating hint… that doesn’t happen. An idea’s or being’s germination is never fully self-caused, and if it appears that way, you’ll find that other wills are actually at fault.
Hence the purpose of inviting malicious individuals to voluntarily decide to perpetuate Lord English’s looping entries, and perform the keys to his eventual creation and rise to power. Lord English can’t be the sole, major retroactive influence in his own creation. Apart from his innate nature, his circumstance needs to be largely the result of other wills, even if it was just an absurd whim. You don’t honestly believe that Calliope and Caliborn were spawned from just another Cherub, do you? >;] (That was outdated.) They may have been born naturally, but OTHER wills – like Gamzee giving them Sgrub copies – were what gave them the ability to play the game and rise to power.
If there weren’t these important restrictions on information, we would have a couple examples of that by now. In fact, there isn’t just a lack of evidence for sourceless generation: we have the opposite of an example. A counter-example.
It was when Kanaya tried to self-generate the earlier conversation against her as a slight to Rose. Click the text document she links right there, would you?
Now, keep in mind, there were ‘reasons’ that Kanaya’s attempt didn’t work. In-the-moment reasons, mainly that John was the one typing all along. However, a broader point was being made by this failure: This kind of self-generation was never going to happen, and never could! The course of the conversation in that text document didn’t correspond even slightly to Rose’s will, and if she’d followed the script it would have been entirely sourceless. There was no reason for a stable loop like that to ever exist.
It’s an example of one of the many misinterpretations and failures Andrew has intentionally shown players making with regards to temporal mechanics, to help demonstrate the true, underlying reasons he has had the story subtly allude to all along. The answer to the Ultimate Riddle.
– The Ultimate Wills –
I’m not saying that will is merely an influence over fate, as you may be able to tell. I’m saying it exists in fate’s place:
The alpha timeline is the precalculated sum of everyone’s wills to act, multiplied by their foreknowledge and vectors of influence!
On the broader stage, you have the major players, Skaia and the Horrorterrors. They have broad, broad omniscience, allowing them to accomplish something merely by tipping a small domino far up the line, nudging the map of eventual outcomes to result a certain way. Skaia and the Horrorterrors can manipulate things so that the wills and actions of lesser beings coincide with their own, inadvertently or otherwise.
In fact, most of the major, plot-important stable time loops you see rarely happened on their own, by Skaia or the Horrorterrors’ doing specifically. Instead, Skaia and the Horrorterrors manipulated the situation so that players would WANT to take the actions that fulfilled the loops these broader powers desired!
Part of what imparts so much freedom to the players is that Skaia and the Horrorterrors are competing, at odds. They train the players, claiming them in equal halves, leveraging heavy omniscience and strong “vectors of influence” - a vector of influence being any power they can extend through to where they want it, such as Skaia showing calculated snippets of the past and future in its clouds to sway individuals, or Horrorterrors whispering to do the same - but in the gaps between their struggles, there is plenty of freedom to decide reality.
FAA: i d0nt kn0w if it was just bad luck FAA: 0r an extensi0n 0f the curse karkat insists he br0ught 0n us FAA: that lead t0 the incidental and unf0rtuit0us pr0t0typing 0f feferis p0werful lusus FAA: with0ut which the battle w0uld have p0sed little challenge FAA: i think FAA: it was m0re likely just an0ther inevitability FAA: a pr0duct 0f c0llusi0n between the disparate f0rces at play FAA: a bargain struck between what skaia kn0ws already and what the g0ds demand up fr0nt FAA: t0gether they 0rchestrate trials sufficient t0 ensure FAA: that in 0verc0ming them we w0uld be pr0ven w0rthy FAA: 0f inheriting
If the Horrorterrors had enough hands in a certain timeframe or location, for example, they could deny a certain possibility from ever occurring: possessing enough foreknowledge, they would simply threaten to have their hands prevent it from succeeding in any possible permutation of reality. Skaia can do this, too!
Of course, their vectors of influence are limited, unless they acquire more via shenanigans… such as the Horrorterrors obtaining Aradia’s service, allowing them to brute-force the trolls’ frog breeding into a specific result via mass timeline dooming!
Though, they had help. And that’s where the third major player comes in, the one throwing everything out of balance: Lord English.
We know that Doc and the Horrorterrors colluded, for example, to bring about the Green Sun. Doc arranged to have Aradia killed, and the Horrorterrors controlled her as a result. Doc sent Rose on a mission to deliver the Tumor, and the Horrorterrors delivered them through space and time in the Void to the very moment the Sun was supposed to be created.
In other words, Skaia and the Horrorterrors are usually in balance, but - though their motives are unlikely to line up exactly - Lord English and the Horrorterrors have collaborated enough to clearly tilted that balance in favor of Destruction, as opposed to Skaia’s Creation.
And boy, does Lord English have the means to. Doc Scratch was, for all practical purposes, omniscient. Plus, he was omnipotent in A2 within all relevant temporal perspective of the trolls’ planet’s lifetime. That is an incredible amount of power over reality: Doc’s will was basically law.
In addition, he helped recruit Aradia into the Horrorterrors’ service (as mentioned above), allowed individuals to receive calculated trauma/disabilities, and leveraged his omniscience to manipulate others’ mindsets into doing what he wished over chatlogs, extending serious influence quite handily into the trolls’ session and beyond.
(You can see why the Void aspect is so critical to the heroes’ eventual victory. If there’s a big black gap where you can’t see the map of dominoes, as an omniscient player in reality, you can’t tip one domino outside the gap and know which direction the flow will eventually fall when it comes out the other side. Void obscures the ability of the omniscient to exercise their will using foreknowledge; they can’t nudge things so something happens if they don’t know the realities their nudging would create. Thanks to Roxy, the entire B2 session after her entry is obscured, and presumably invisible to Doc!)
What about doomed timelines? Well, in the case of time travel, they occur when someone capable of such travel possesses the will to doom everything to change the past, and did so. (Sometimes unwittingly!) Thus, the whole branch was doomed, because from the start, someone was willing to erase it all to change it. That’s a great power (with a high cost) that those with access to the ability to doom a timeline possess… or, those who can influence such a person’s will. (An example is the timeline Davesprite came from. Recall that he doomed everything to go back because John died… but it was later revealed that said John had made a deal with his denizen TO die, so that Dave would go back and fix everything! Fun fact: If you think about it, Davesprite’s dooming of his branch timeline was not really because John would have died, but because CAL would have been prototyped and unable to complete his vastly-willed loop!)
As to non-time-travel ones, I’ll get to that in the next section.
The compromise between Skaia and the Horrorterrors is also why some characters, like the trolls during Horrorstuck, die for good before they can make it… but under a morality Skaia presumably enforces.
Consider this: The trolls were denied the reward partially via their own doing. Though an outside entity ensured their various flaws would mount, it was indeed personal flaws in the trolls - and a disregard of the game’s quests and lessons - that led them to troll and interfere with the humans in a manner that catalyzed the very reward-denial which allowed them to do so in the first place, as if Jack’s interference in their nigh-victory was a perverse consequence of their own wills! (Which fits in with the sort of morality Skaia may be enforcing, that there must be a justification which they themselves might eventually see for their condition.) So, once the trolls had been denied the reward, you could think of them as being in a post-game “overtime”:
“Start to overcome your flaws for the good of your team and reality’s perpetuation, or die and be excluded.” As if they were each given one last chance, or we witnessed one last failure before they fell out of participation in the story’s major events. Skaia might wish to let the players have more time to learn, but the game is over, and the Horrorterrors demand blood; so, Skaia gives everyone a last shot to prove they won’t stagnate, ensuring that morality plays underneath the circumstances of the deaths of those who fail.
And as it happened - this is something we far later realized, and I’ve edited it into this post - the trials granted to them coincided with their aspects: Their mistakes were largely related to immersing themselves in their aspects without overcoming them, without ascending to control of the power at their command and realizing its flaws!
Feferi practiced optimism, preached that everything was going to be alright, but never acted on it: she merely let things fall as they would under the premise of “everything’s going to be okay”. (Including her dangerous former moirail, but her culpability in ignoring the danger he posed - and not doing something about it beforehand, though I wouldn’t have recommended keeping the relationship - is debatable.) As such, she was excluded from the picture. She died.
This was a trial of Life, the aspect involving the energy and optimism one uses to affect reality. Satisfied with events, she was suddenly content to do nothing substantial to change the course of existence, not understanding the sacrifice (Doom’s domain) necessary on their parts for existence to continue. And in her complacence, as she simply indulged in and ceased leveraging Life, Life simply ceased leveraging her.
Tavros learned Vriska’s disastrous brand of false confidence, and acted as if it was real. He foolishly pursued a doomed duel with Vriska in person, without so much as notifying his team of the reasoning behind what he was doing, and charged headlong into a vicious wall of spikes called the Thief of Light. He died.
This was a trial of Breath, the aspect of quest, direction, and freedom. Tavros was arrested with a goal, a quest, dedicating himself to the foolish move of attempting for Vriska’s life. He ignored any and all warning signs, catapulting himself to the task like John on a jetpack. However, in immersing himself in this direction, Tavros drowned himself in Breath without appreciating its inverse, Blood: the aspect of bonds, relationships, promises, responsibility and shackles. Not once did he consider informing his friends of his course of action, asking them for advice or assistance, uniting a single will with his own to increase his likelihood of success or potentially dissuade him from his course. And confronted through the chest with an insurmountable obstacle, Breath left him.
Contrast this with John, who reconsidered in favor of his trust in Dave!
TG: so you believe me then TG: about future me TG: and like TG: him turning into a floating sword bird EB: um… EB: ok, i don’t know anything about that… EB: but it doesn’t matter! EB: you’re my best bro, and if you say not to go then i won’t go.
GC: SO JOHN 4CTU4LLY D1D WH4T 1 S41D? TG: yeah TG: im telling you TG: huge pushover TG: he will do what you say TG: unless it happens to be for his own good TG: then all a sudden hes a tough nut to crack go figure
Equius was given one last chance to stand up against his personal issues, against Gamzee, but refused to overcome his hemospectrum zealotry, even when his friends’ lives were at stake. For this, he died.
This was a trial of Void, the aspect of nothingness, irrelevance, the destruction of information, darkness, and - most importantly in this discussion - submission. Equius indulged in submission to authority over the safety and livelihood of his friends. Had he even so much as twitched his neck, taking the slightest bit of personal free will (a part of Light’s domain that Vriska often steals) into his own hands, the rope around his neck would have snapped clean. Instead, he perished as unimportant as ever.
Nepeta was placed in a safe location where she could have been absolutely safe and hidden. She had one last chance to finally take the danger they were in seriously, to finally move where she had stagnated frivolously instead of making any sort of move towards the team’s survival. Instead, she ignored her moirail’s last wishes, and scurried around the vents curiously, completely heedless of the mounting warnings and danger. For this, she died. (Yeah yeah curiosity killed the blah blah I get it.)
This was a trial of Heart, the aspect concerning personal inclination, the effect of the unique soul on reality. Nepeta followed her inborn curiosity relentlessly, when even the slightest consideration of logic - Mind, the choices with which we react to our environment - would have had her taking her situation seriously before it was too late.
Compare this to Terezi’s mistake with Dave, getting so wrapped up in scheming, plotting, and affecting Dave’s thoughts about reaching God-Tier that she ended up violating his trust in her by killing him, injuring his resolve in a way that may have eventually helped lead to his suicide attempt, and reducing herself to later tears. The mistake of immersing herself in Mind while ignoring the ramifications of Heart.
Vriska is a very unique case. She was making significant progress against her issues, and her death wouldn’t have had to happen… without the influence of Doc Scratch. He had Gamzee invite destruction through Rage in Terezi, narrowing her outlook on the possibilities available to forestall Vriska’s fight with Jack, until it was too late for her options to be anything more than killing her or allowing everyone else to die. (For what purpose Doc had her killed - the nature of the “unfathomable destruction” her later actions will result in - is yet to be seen. EDIT: We might now know what it is!) However, despite the cruelly enforced inevitability, Vriska still faced and failed a Skaia-ordained test.
That test was the coin flip.
Vriska had amassed enough luck to forestall any attempts by fortune at preventing her from getting exactly what she wanted, all the time, without exceptions. If she wanted to have her fight with Jack, she was going to have it. However, this outlook failed to take her team into account:
In being challenged to let the coin fall fairly, Vriska was being offered the chance - begged to consider the option, by Skaia, you could think about it - of allowing her team to possess even the least, slightest bit of control over reality. To allow coincidence to even possibly forestall her own desires, to have the tiniest chance of not getting what she wanted, if it had the potential to be in her friends’ best interests.
She stole just enough luck to decide the flip in her favor. Took away the only chance they had at overruling her fortune. And she died a Just death as a result. There was no way she was going to take Skaia’s offer, but it at least had to put it on the table for her before killing her.
After all, this was still indeed a trial she failed, and you can very easily see that it was a trial of Light. The aspect concerns not just fortune, but information, relevance and importance. Vriska was immersed in her aspect, wanted to be responsible for both her team’s defeat - Jack Noir’s existence - and their victory, by personally defeating him. She wanted it ALL! And ultimately, this killed her, and she was in actuality responsible for neither; a First Guardian of some variety would have been created in the kids’ session regardless, and even if John had succeeded in prototyping the blue lady doll, Bec still intended to jump in. Vriska failed to acknowledge that more people than her deserved to matter to reality’s progression.
Eridan I didn’t think I had to mention, but apparently everyone insists that I do. I thought “I’m going to join the enemy and kill my friends because fuck the progression of reality” was quite enough of a moral statement, you know?.
Eridan was overcome not by his aspect, bur rather by his entire role: he came to detest Hope, not become immersed in it. To become fully realized, a Prince must understand and appreciate the aspect which they threaten to destroy, else their path leads to nothing but oblivion for themselves and those around them.
(Dirk constantly, unwittingly attempts to erode the uniqueness of his friends in place of logic, to pound them into submission on occasion simply with his relentless determination… and his auto-responder is even less restrained in this regard. Until Dirk learns to fully appreciate their Hearts, the wear he puts on his friends will begin to result in cracks.)
Finally, the Matriorb was destroyed. This was one of the most important and thematic consequences of the troll session’s “overtime”: Having been denied the Ultimate Reward, the major celestial players - Horrorterrors especially - will not let their race perpetuate. Said Matriorb was not simply destroyed, but destined to be destroyed, according to Kanaya’s modus. And when the Condesce repeatedly attempted to resurrect trollkind on post-scratch Earth, the Gl'bgolyb progeny that was her pet - a Horrorterror emissary - kept wiping them out, as she had not earned the right to propagate in the dark gods’ eyes! Trollkind’s resurrection awaits a further victory on the behalf of the remaining trolls, a demonstration of worthiness or a sacrifice… and may not come in the form of trolls, but rather - as a result of their combined victory with the kids - a hybrid race, spliced with human reproductive capability.
(Minor side theory: With all that symbolism about Skaia reflecting itself, what if Skaia is a mirror? Perhaps Skaia is merely an omniscient entity that bolsters and reflects its team’s wills? That’s why rebelling against Skaia is such a bad idea… you’re rebelling against your own best interests, the perpetuation of your own will, and that of your team!)
Back to the Riddle.
Now, recall what’s been said about the Ultimate Riddle over the course of the story. How Karkat equated it to their creation and everything being “meant to happen all along”, and presumably misinterpreting it to mean pointlessness, for example.
At every step and turn in Homestuck, characters have misinterpreted this property of reality - why the alpha timeline is the way it is - and this has been done often enough to the point that it seems thematic. We keep getting hint after hint, but the story is waiting, not telling us the truth outright. At least, not yet. (Recall that in past Karkat’s convo with John where he was about to reveal the answer to the Riddle, the rest was cut off, obscured from us.)
But back when he first really went into it, in Act 4:
CG: AND THIS WAS THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE ABOUT THE ULTIMATE RIDDLE. EB: what is the riddle anyway? EB: maybe i can guess, i am good at riddles! CG: HAHAHA, THINK AGAIN IGNORAMUS. CG: IT’S NOT EVEN THAT GREAT. CG: OR EVEN MUCH OF A RIDDLE AT ALL. CG: IN THE COURSE OF YOUR ADVENTURE YOU WOULD HAVE ENCOUNTERED ALL THESE FRAGMENTS OF LIKE WEIRD POEMS AND SHIT. CG: YOU FIND THEM ALONG YOUR QUESTS, WITH CLUES AND STUFF BURIED IN THEM TO HELP YOU SOLVE PUZZLES AND MOVE HUGE STONE COLUMNS AND MAKE STAIRCASES APPEAR AND LOTS OF NONSENSE LIKE THAT. CG: AND IT’S ALL MASKED IN THIS FLOWERY SORT OF FROTHY POETIC JACKASSERY THAT NOBODY REALLY CARES ABOUT. CG: AND I SURE AS HELL DON’T CARE ABOUT SPOILING IT FOR YOU. CG: BUT WHAT ALL THESE LOFTY SYMBOLIC ALLUSIONS BOIL DOWN TO IS SOME GRANDER STATEMENT ABOUT WHAT YOU SEE HAPPENING HERE. CG: THAT YOU WERE ALWAYS THE KEY TO SEEDING YOUR OWN EXISTENCE THROUGH THIS GAME. CG: AND ANY HOPE THAT IT COULD HAVE PLAYED OUT DIFFERENTLY OR THAT YOU COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS WHOLE MESS WAS ALWAYS JUST A RUSE. EB: a distaction, perhaps? CG: WHAT? EB: nevermind.
[…]
CG: BUT ANYWAY, THERE’S A LOT MORE TO THE RIDDLE THAN JUST THAT, LIKE WHAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT LAST TIME WE TALKED. CG: BUT THAT’S SORT OF THE GIST OF THE THEMES IT DEALS WITH.
So - Karkat’s pessimistic wrong-headedness about it aside - this is supposed to be a theme the game is constantly pushing. What themes has the game constantly been pushing, anyway?
TG: im not a hero TG: my bro was TG: john is TG: im not GC: Y3S YOU 4R3! TG: no GC: Y3S, W3 4LL 4R3 GC: 1 4M TH3 H3RO OF M1ND GC: YOU 4R3 TH3 H3RO OF T1M3 GC: TH4T 1S WHO W3 W3R3 CR34T3D TO B3
That the players are HEROES.
NANNASPRITE: Yes, they have dueled in this manner forever… that is, until you showed up!
That they are IMPORTANT.
AG: I am giving you the option, 8ecause at some point a hero has to start making choices. AG: Once you take a 8r8k from hunting treasure and stop getting distracted 8y side quests, you eventually realize that’s what this game is all a8out. AG: The choices you make affect the destiny of the universe you cre8te, as well as the type of hero you 8ecome.
That their CHOICES MATTER.
NANNASPRITE: That remains for you to find out, dear! For you see, the journey you are about to take is The Ultimate Riddle!
And as you can now clearly see, it says all this because they are! Their will shapes the contents of reality, and if they succeed, their new universe and universes to come. That’s the essential struggle portrayed by Skaia’s game, and perhaps about to play out across all of Paradox Space at once with our heroes: Creation and Destruction are at odds, warring with each other, and if all continues once balance is upset, Creation will always lose. However, only the heroes can make a difference and turn the tide despite this inevitably, fighting Destruction back and forging reality anew amidst the shattered remains of both!
In fact, Karkat’s even begun to glimpse this, bit by bit. Remember that argument he had with himself in one of the intermissions?
FCG: HMM. CCG: WHAT THE FUCK IS IT NOW? FCG: IT JUST OCCURRED TO ME FCG: THIS DUMB TANTRUM I THREW FCG: THIS ENTIRE BAD MOOD… FCG: IT WAS JUST ANOTHER IDIOTIC SELF-FULFILLING REACHAROUND WASN’T IT. CCG: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? FCG: I MEAN, WHERE DID THIS EVEN COME FROM? FCG: IT WAS LIKE SPONTANEOUSLY GENERATING SELF-LOATHING WITH NO DISCERNIBLE SOURCE. FCG: WAS THIS EMOTIONAL OUTBURST EVER EVEN REAL? CCG: OH NO, DON’T EVEN START WITH THAT. CCG: DO *NOT* START GETTING EXISTENTIAL ABOUT MY ANGER. CCG: YOU BETTER FUCKING BELIEVE THIS IS REAL. FCG: ARE YOU SURE, MAN? CCG: ASLKJSDKLSDLFHJSIKLKLSDGNKL
He just doesn’t quite realize that these self-arguments happen because he wanted them to happen! It’s a slow progression of realization, a gradual reveal to the readers that encompasses and underlies Homestuck as a whole.
– The Perpetuation of Reality –
Since Act 6 began, many more of the pieces to the broader puzzle, the implications of this, have been falling into place.
AG: It helps to understand your role, not just as a hero who must overcome, 8ut as a single capillary within a much larger 8ioexistential system. AG: Think of it like circulatory system, where the veins and capillaries that do not help the overall flow of 8lood through the system are likely to wither and die. Those are doomed offshoots. AG: Reality itself is using you and many others to propagate its own existence. Strictly speaking, there is only one path to its successful propagation. 8ut it still permits you to make choices. Not all that are conceiva8le, 8ut some nevertheless, as dictated 8y who you are and the challenges you face. And you are free to make key decisions however you like, as long as you understand that some of these paths unfairly or not will lead to o8livion. 8ecause those choices do not contri8ute constructively to the perpetuation of all existence, including your own. AG: Such is the 8urden assumed 8y anyone who plays this game.
Now, this does sound somewhat bleaker than what I’ve been saying.
At first.
To start, it helps to remember that influencing the nature of reality is the theme behind this game, and underlies its heroes and their abilities!
The Aspects, varied and opposing, encompass the essential components of reality and how it unfolds. (click the links for more) Space and Time are its physical fabric, from which power and flexibility are derived. Heart is the reset-spanning power of the unique soul and its potential to carve the ideas it deeply desires into reality, while Mind is the effect of choice and façade, of logic and thought on how events unfold. Light is what Skaia and Doc Scratch operate on: information, perception, communication, and the carefully placed circumstances encoded into reality to benefit individuals/causes in the form of Fortune, while Void is the domain of the Horrorterrors, causing destruction and obscuring information from view to forestall action or tempt interest, leaving misfortune in its wake. Breath is direction, purpose and quest, the drive and freedom to fly and move toward a chosen path on reality or send others/objects on paths of their own, while Blood is grounded in the bonds, unity, and suffering that glue people together toward whatever goals they may seek to effect into reality under their combined power.Life is the energy and optimism to fuel one’s inclination and ability to influence existence, and Doom its curtailing, pessimism and the routes which lead to death and exclusion from the ability to affect that which exists - how Life’s energy may be expended and exhausted in exchange for powerful effects on reality. Hope is one’s belief in the breadth of the possibilities open to them for pursuit, for delivery into reality, while Rage is how one’s perception of them is narrowed considerably through anger and fear.
Heroes meant to play are given not just a blase pool of their aspect to access, but rather a specific method of influence, a Class, to be pursued or inverted to affect both the reality of their aspect and all reality through their aspect. (click the links for more) There are classes which may Exploit their aspect, like a Knight, or Redistribute their aspect, the Thief and Rogue. Classes which Create or Repair their/through-their aspect like the Sylph, or Destroy their/through-their aspect, the Prince and Bard. The pair of which the Witch is a member possesses the ability to Change, and the pair including the Seer may Understand. These cover pretty much anything you could ever do with something, as a whole, don’t they?
As such, with sessions composed of heroes whose essence is that of reality’s unfolding itself and how it may be influenced… why, it’s no surprise that the version of reality which they most successfully modify and perpetuate is that which continues to exist!
If you think about it, this also explains the necessity of a Heroic or Just death method for Gods. Everyone who lives deserves a chance to have a say in how reality and the world unfolds. And if powerful heroes lived forever, well, others’ voices would be drowned out, even if the heroes intentions were noble! So, there are conditions to godhood. If one overembraces their hero role like Vriska was described to have done above, or simply resolves that their will matters more than that of others, they risk becoming a tyrant over the unfolding of reality: one who crowds out and suppresses other wills, that of other heroes and the countless masses. When those with will rise up to challenge and kill such a tyrant for their transgression, no matter how noble the tyrant’s objectives may seem, they receive a Just death, their will removed from reality so others might give voice. And likewise: Noble and fair gods will find that eventually, over the possible nigh-eternity of their lifespan, there comes a time when a challenge or threat arises, the spark for a purpose, whose victory is worth their life, a wish that is worth their soul. By selecting one mighty will to enforce, choosing potentially the last difference they will ever make to reality, they accept that the rest of reality will be decided by others after their success or failure, should others’ wills prevent the god from surviving. This is a Heroic death, when a good natured god almost intentionally passes the baton to the next generation.
If you think about it, this is the virtual condition for reaching the God-Tiers. To rise up to godhood, you must prove that you are willing to affect how reality unfolds even at the cost of your life. Others may even judge this for you, on your behalf, if they believe in you. And your reward is simply a guarantee… by perpetuating your life until a Heroic or Just death, godhood in the alpha timeline guarantees that you will live until you get the chance to attempt to carve your soul’s will into reality’s progression.
Rereading Aranea’s paragraph, a seed of cynicism still comes to mind: that these alpha timelines are still bluntly forced to perpetuate some given, immutable paradox-space-wide cycle of reality. But there’s a far more hopeful answer than that, and that’s to be addressed next.
It’s also logical, since there is essentially nothing new in paradox space. Everything that can happen is either a visual or substantive reproduction of something which has already transpired on a timeline, offshoot or otherwise.
Let’s assume that will holds true. How would Paradox Space eventually cycle? How would reality be at the whim of individuals, and still be a cyclical existence?
An easy answer, and likely the final answer to the riddle itself:
Paradox Space exists, and continues to exist, because people wanted it to do so.
TT: But in the process of killing him and you, I release your master, who is just as deadly? He’s more deadly. But the danger he poses is sanctioned by paradox space. It is a known quantity. His very existence in a universe will mean it will inevitably be torn apart. But there are rules to his entry, and his grim procession through paradox space is rather orderly. The present equilibrium has accounted for him, and will continue to.
If Lord English is sanctioned by Paradox Space, we can deduce that this is by virtue of the factors behind Paradox Space’s very existence. A duality, in other words:
Caliborn, the Lord of Time, meant to embody Time with an iron fisted grip on the aspect, using the Creation associated with his progression and the universes he fuels to wreak massive, cruel Destruction.
Calliope, the Muse of Space, meant to passively embody Space itself, may very well come to Destroy herself in a sacrifice that sparks and perpetuates all Creation!
Eventually, the kids - and the readers - are going to understand the truth behind the Ultimate Riddle. And for our heroes, with that understanding comes substantial power.
Karkat’s pessimism kept him from understanding the implications of the Ultimate Riddle. But he told John what it was, offscreen… so what if John understood, or will eventually understand?
John is the Heir of Breath, the nexus via which direction changes. If he were to unite his friends’ wills towards the perpetuation or repair of reality, against Lord English, with the understanding that they are the heroes meant to choose the outcome of existence? If he, Heir to the aspect of freedom and escape, were to lead them through a breach in Paradox Space to a new reality? Well, I don’t think there’d be any stopping them. :)
(Revision 5 - sbahj note below) (Revision 6 - added aspect-based trial notes and a tiny bit on the creation/destruction struggle of sburb. 6.5 - and Eridan, i guess.) (Revision 7 - added a link to the Breath and Blood post.) (Revision 8 - added a link to ENDGAME - Knight to D6, regarding an escape to a new reality.) (Revision 9 - added a note about the confirmed Auryn amulet below.) (Revision 10 - added a link to The Green Sun’s Destruction and described how the answer to the riddle explains the Heroic or Just god death requirement.)
Which interfered with the timing and success of John’s hit so he’d roll just right:
To inject welcome absurdity into the situation, which - along with Rose’s own silly appearance - shook John out of his enraged, unhealthy state of mind, bringing him back to mental clarity.
AG: Oh really, well you seemed pretty excited a8out killing Tavros too. AG: And you even helped! So I guess that is how you work after all. Not really. All I did was stand somewhere for a few minutes.
AA: but it was my fault AA: i was distracted when i c0uld have helped him GC: 1 W4S TOO GC: W3 W3R3 BOTH D1STR4CT3D BY TH3 S4M3 TH1NG AA: yeah AA: wh0 was he anyway GC: PR3TTY SUR3 1T WAS VR1SKAS FR13ND AA: what was he d0ing there AA: watching us GC: WHO KNOWS
He warped into place somewhere where Terezi and Aradia could see him, distracting him with his odd presence alone. This left the pair too preoccupied to notice Tavros’s pleading messages for help.
Doc Scratch operates through Light, both in his nature - extreme foreknowledge allowing him to leverage coincidence against others, the use of information and communication, blinding the mental clarity of individuals and an entire race using the ‘truth’ and by sewing the environment against them - and in the way he uses Light players as protegés, like the Sylph, Thief, and Seer.
This recent event only confirms it. So, perhaps this can hint to us what Caliborn did to give Lil’ Hal the frighteningly effective omniscience and power it eventually possesses when it becomes Doc Scratch and his seed cueballs? I wonder how he’d get his hands on that kind of crystallized power?
Hopefully it wasn’t torn out of Rose or something.
Why did Jack kill Doomed Dave? Or more specifically, why did he kill just him, and not all the other human types he could smell? I'm cranking a weird theory about Skaia/ParadoxSpace/Whatever making Jack do what's convenient for them and their own plan against his own nature, and this is the only HARD example of it. Why did he kill That Dave, at That Time, when he was probably aware of All The Daves and All The Times? Why just the doomed one?
The likely, ‘practical’ answer is that after killing John at his Quest Bed - the Beds being big open targets out in the middle of everything - he thought it’d be a good idea to swing past the other beds, to check if any other easy kid targets were lounging around. As it happened, there was one!
There are practical reasons why he couldn’t quite trace the scent of each kid to their doom, dogways. John had the Breeze screwing things up. Dave’s trail would abruptly end wherever he travels through time. Jade is off-limits.
And Rose… well, she was delving into Void at the time, no? The aspect of obfuscation? Even though she wasn’t fully grimdark yet, it wouldn’t be surprising if the destructive energy she wrought rended her trail, especially since she was flying under the exact same power.
But anyway, that’s the practical, in-moment reason. There’s always an in-moment reason for individuals’ actions, and that doesn’t mean there isn’t a broader, metatemporal one behind it.
Doomed selves do have a habit of running into circumstances which would kill them fairly quickly. Even when Aradiabot created a seemingly-insurmountable thousand time clones, a nigh-omnipotent Jack Noir appeared to shred them to bits. It’s not hard to guess, then, that these coincidences are deliberately arranged in response to 'doomed’ status.
I wouldn’t say that Aradia singlehandedly brought about Jack Noir’s entrance by necessitating reality to have the ability to destroy a thousand of her timeclones at once. However, I would say that some force interested in enforcing the dooming rule efficiently - most likely the Horrorterrors - tends to tip background dominoes so that existing destructive forces end up cruising by at the right times/places for cleanup.
I don’t know if you’ve answered this, but is there any chance you could explain your reasoning for Page being passive? It makes such a good active-passive ratio and it fits the shoes, I know, but it’s just bugging me that the class talked up as “weak, but with enough untapped potential to become really powerful later” ends up being passive all along. What’s the point of the entire theoretical Page character arc if a Page with realized potential is still only a background player serving others?
I’m so glad you asked! I’d been waiting for an opportunity to clarify this, and copy over some discussion I made on a forum a while earlier. :)
There was already some evidence that a Page’s true calling involves others…
AG: 8ut may8e that’s ok. May8e it’s just your style, and your real strength is surrounding yourself with allies who are much stronger than you. AG: Like me! AG: I’m sure there is more than one way up the echeladder. In your case pro8a8ly the only way is to roll gently up the echeramp. AG: The path of the invalid. AT: yEAH, i AGREE,
Remember when Tavros called his friends to help him out when Vriska had him cornered? Or later, when she gave him nothing but stairs?
But of course, Vriska is never completely right.
I put the Page where I did on my class list for good reason. Even if Andrew hadn’t mentioned that the two ‘most passive classes’ tended male, there are still good reasons to believe that the Page fits as a passive Exploit class. Or rather, reasons to believe that a passive counterpart to the Knight fits the explanation of the Page class we’ve seen so far.
First, let me talk about Knights.
ARADIA: the knight of time is not necessarily the tactician ARADIA: he is a powerful warrior class which exploits the flow of time as a weapon
Contrast what Aradia did with what Dave did. Aradia spammed timelines en-masse, “Creating Time” if my role assignments have merit. (She’s still a Creation class, but “buying Time” suits what she’s done so far a bit more, at least as a God-Tier player time-stopping Jack and the like; while she was dead, she wasn’t exactlyup to speed with her role, and mass timeline creation was more using her Maid of Time role as a subrole while inverted, hypothetically.) Dave, however, “Exploited” it.
CG: ANYWAY, SHE AND DAVE DO A LOT OF FROG BREEDING, ACCELERATING THE PROCESS SIGNIFICANTLY BY EXPLOITING TIME TRAVEL, WITH HELP FROM ME AND KANAYA, SINCE WE WERE IN CHARGE OF FROG DUTIES IN OUR SESSION.
CG: SHE AND DAVE RAN INTO JACK, WHICH I’M SURE HE MUST HAVE SAW COMING BECAUSE I’VE NEVER SEEN ANYONE EXPLOIT TIME TRAVEL SO SHAMELESSLY AS HIM, NOT EVEN ARADIA.
What did this entail? Establishing ridiculous stable loops: rigging a stock exchange on the scale of super-trillions of boondollars, compressing weeks of frog breeding into a matter of hours, gathering intel on the future only to wrap his will intentionally into it, and shoving multiple coordinated time-selves into a single fight… without dooming himself! He wasn’t creating, destroying, or changing Time. He was just making the maximum possible use of the Time he had!
The “Exploit” class-pair are thus masters of their aspect's use. A Knight takes their aspect and applies it in ways, or with skill, that nobody else would conceive. If the Page is its passive form… then they invite others to practice similar mastery, and eventually allow the aspect itself to be applied to its largest, most shocking potential! No wonder they’d be a slow, eventually tremendous class.
UU: while the more passive bard coUld be seen as “one who allows x to be destroyed, or invites destrUction throUgh x,” as if by the will of the aspect.
Their understanding of the limited amount of the aspect they have at their disposal is only granted by the opportunities at which it shifts and flows, reveals its whims and influence naturally. A Knight would grab their aspect and grind with it immediately, sharpening up rather fast. The Page must wait, and it’s a worthwhile price to pay.
(Vriska, who couldn’t wait, ended up tearing the Page in half. She robbed him of mental clarity time after time when he’d just been building up adventurous courage, like the incident at her quest bed that left him crying and sleeping for most of the session, and eventually punched a hole through him and tossed him into a pit like garbage. Thief: Tear into Page. Paper puns.)
Here’s how I’d look at it:
Give a Seer her sword, and she’ll show you how to hone blades sharp enough to rend solid rock asunder.
Give a Mage his sword, and he’ll apply it in battle like a surgeon, twisting himself around other blades as if their attacks had been announced beforehand.
Give a Prince his sword, and he’ll shatter it in a king’s heart.
Give a Bard his sword, and whole armies will soon be swinging and breaking blades against each other.
Give a Sylph her sword, and she’ll mend both her allies’ swords and the allies attached to them.
Give a Maid her sword, and she’ll craft five dozen more.
Give a Witch her sword, and she can swing it as an axe against one to her right, then thrust it as a dagger against one to her left.
Give an Heir his sword, and others’ swords will bend, reshape, and move around him as if he were a nexus for their essence.
Give a Rogue her sword, and ally and enemy alike will find themselves with or without their swords at her whim.
Give a Thief her sword, and she’ll use it to hunt down a vast collection.
Give a Knight his sword, and he’ll cut down foes, mend armor, scale walls, unlock doors, perform alchemy, fell drawbridges, dice vegetables and stir stew, jumpstart cars, unclog his plumbing, clog an enemy’s plumbing, and perform circus entertainment… all with the same, solitary, unchanged sword. And when it finally breaks in half, he’ll use the hilt as a dagger and the tip as a doorstop.
And finally, if you give a Page his sword, he will train slowly. Driven by the opportunities life hands him to use it, he’ll get better, stronger. And as he does, he will share his enthusiasm with others, allowing his skill to encourage and bolster the wills and talents of his allies with their swords. Given enough time… he will lead not just an army, but an army of Knights!
That leadership is involved is the key distinction, here. Pages may be a very passive class focused on inspiration, but in the sense that leaders are inspirational and powerful as well:
He would rise through the ranks of the cavalreapers and assume command, having proven the most skilled and fearless of them. He would exhi8it a remarka8le pup8tion, the sort only recorded in myth, growing, or perhaps simply revealing, a striking pair of wings. His army thus inspired would spearhead a major re8ellion.
Given time to mature, the Page is much, much more than a Knight.
Or more specifically, in the case of someone such as Tavros…
You wheel over to your favorite poster featuring PUPA PAN, which is your favorite thing. […] You have left your window open since you were very young, just in case Pupa stopped by one night and decided to splash a pinch of SPECIAL STARDUST in your face.
A Page of Breath is someone who inspires others to the benefits of being as frivolous and detached as they were when young, to seek adventure, who teaches them to fly with just his own encouraging example, words, and a pinch of fairy dust.
Silly theory, I guess! SBURB is a the “confrontational mating” that Calliope talked about. Your thoughts, tipsy BYB?
that’s actually a really good thought, the idea that andrew had that in for cherubs as a metaphor for the creation struggle between Skaia and the Horrorterrors each game
Could you restate your position on what you think Vriska’s role in the story will be, specifically regarding Doc Scratch’s last warning? I’m curious to see whether your perspective has changed at all recently.
AG: Blech. What a sno8. You’re worse than my meddley meddler meddlefriend. I wonder why they waste their camaraderie on you. I’ll never understand it. AG: I thought you said you would 8e 8rief???????? I’ll say one last thing. Though the magnitude of the ensuing destruction resulting directly from your actions will be neither possible or necessary for you to fathom, there nevertheless ought to be a silver lining. The only question is whether you will live long enough to see it. I’m not a gambling man. But if I was, I wouldn’t bet on it. Goodbye. AG: Zzzzzzzz. 8ye, assh8le.
(Hey, she actually said Blech instead of 8lech!)
Vriska’s upcoming actions or choices will, inadvertently or otherwise, result in unfathomable destruction. As to exactly how she could, though, it’s rather freakin’ hard to say!
Calliope is a rather vulnerable option for Vriska. She specifically intends to “fuck shit up” - as well-meaning as she meant the expression - and there’s no more conveniently available vector for shitfuckery than Calliope’s Void-hidden soul, a ghost embodying reality’s most serious hope for victory as well as a vessel of potentially incredible power.
In that scenario, Doc Scratch arranged for Vriska’s death specifically as a means to have Calliope’s ghost cornered. Why Vriska specifically would be necessary for this is just as hard to say, though, unless Calliope is hiding in a form appropriate for a “Thief of Light” to carelessly snuff out.
As for other options… well, I don’t know. But keep in mind that Doc Scratch had her killed specifically so that she would eventually cause this destruction.
Let’s move on to the resurrection angle.
Aranea confirmed that ghosts do not age in appearance, and that having a relationship with a living person liable to grow into adulthood would be awkward and infeasible for them. Since even the doomed John that Vriska met was snuffed out by Lord English’s mighty shoop-da-whoop - and many other such Johns presumably would/will be destroyed as well by LE’s continuing rampage - Vriska forming a relationship with yet another John is right out.
There’s a certain amount of romantic determinism in play, here. Vriska has earned the right to romance, to the extent that the story must have her either live or (double-)die through completion of a romantic arc. Through this and the above, I can narrow down four five possibilities we could even remotely expect for how her arc could unfold in terms of degrees-of-alive, before and/or after she causes the foretold destruction:
Tavros undergoes major character development somehow, and Vriska forms a relationship with him. Vriska stays dead.
Vriska commits a climactic sacrifice on behalf of the likes of John, redeeming herself through ghost-death. Vriska double-dies.
John dies before the plot is out, and forms a relationship with Vriska. Vriska stays dead.
Jake dies before the plot is out, and forms a relationship with Vriska. Vriska stays dead. (I honestly didn’t realize this option until I’d written #3 out.)
Vriska revives and pursues John, Jake, or both. Vriska is revived, but would be made to appear in serious danger of dying, especially after her choices result in disaster.
How likely are these?
First of all, #3 is right out. John ain’t dyin’, far as I’m concerned.
Aranea’s ghost might bite it before this is up, and would essentially have to for #4 to be a viable possibility. Aranea is simply more the attractive prospect to Jake in the long run, as far as we can tell. (Though we may be wrong.)
I see #1 as unlikely. Tavros may undergo some character development, especially if he revives in the interim, but I doubt it’d be enough to coalesce with Vriska.
That leaves #2 and #5… neither of which are mutually exclusive, necessarily. She could get revived and eventually pursue #2, and perhaps be denied from doing so in order to have her live, etc etc romantic drama. And she could pursue #5, but fail, and perhaps even be corrupted into reversing her character progression or something (as unlikely as that seems to me).
But it seems very likely - the most likely - that we will see #5 play out in some way, shape, or form. Not just because it makes sense, but also because:
The only question is whether you will live long enough to see it. I’m not a gambling man. But if I was, I wouldn’t bet on it.
This statement seems to factor her eventually living again into Doc Scratch’s plan!
Not that I have the slightest clue how. Denizen revival, even though the timing seems off? I don’t know!
Out of random curiosity, would you say that the Space/Time players are capable of "ghosting"anything? And if so, what? It would be really freaky if a Space player just go Time powers just because. Also, does a Prince or Bard of those Aspects do?
Anonymous
Space and Time players can indeed ghost their inversions, even if it’s less in terms of raw power and more that of inclination.
In fact, we’ve seen it.
Witches are supposed to be powerful active classes, but toward the beginning, Jade was extremely passive. She used the knowledge Skaia granted her of the future, past, and present to advise her friends, conducting them from the sidelines (and “sleeping away half their session”) rather than moving with a confidence that she’d have the courage to make direct, substantial differences. You could see her visible insecurity about this with Jadesprite, later on.
And what happens to be the inversion of a Witch of Space?
Why, a Seer of Time.
Interesting, no? :)
Anyway, I won’t ask your Prince/Bard of Space/Time question tonight, because I am fucking tired. And also because I just spent an hour and a half adding more paragraphs to the ultimate riddle theory post. Yes, really. I did that.
I regard them with a smug, condescending glare atop a haughty perch of canon.
Mostly because the way I see it, the aspects and classes we have already encompass every element of reality, and every fundamental way it can be manipulated. It’s hard to imagine anything else squeezing itself in between them to be regarded on equal footing, especially since doing so would degrade the all-encompassing significance of the main aspects.
Non-canon classes make a little more sense than non-canon aspects. I can also imagine ‘minor’ classes to fill out sessions larger than 12 players, highly specialized classes meant not to be on necessarily equal footing with the others?
I suppose by extension, you could achieve some minor or 'informal’ aspects by combining facets of the other ones together. Combinatorial aspects.
Reposting a related ask in rebloggable form. Anonymous asked:
Out of random curiosity, would you say that the Space/Time players are capable of “ghosting” anything? And if so, what? It would be really freaky if a Space player just go Time powers just because. [snip]
Space and Time players can indeed ghost their inversions, even if it’s less in terms of raw power and more that of inclination.
In fact, we’ve seen it.
Witches are supposed to be powerful active classes, but toward the beginning, Jade was extremely passive. She used the knowledge Skaia granted her of the future, past, and present to advise her friends, conducting them from the sidelines (and “sleeping away half their session”) rather than moving with a confidence that she’d have the courage to make direct, substantial differences. You could see her visible insecurity about this with Jadesprite, later on.
And what happens to be the inversion of a Witch of Space?
Jade was especially passive for a lot of the story, spending a lot of time falling asleep (or being put to sleep) at key moments. It wasn’t until she reached god tier as a Witch (said to be a highly active class) that she became extremely active, making lots of stuff happen, rounding up planets and all that. Rose may have been a similar case, being excessively active as a Derse dreamer, but then flipping over to a passive role upon reaching god tier as a passive class.
I find it fascinating how Andrew distracted us from this so well. Here, we had a girl who was so adept with the visions in her dreams that she could redirect a present meant for her birthday to receive it at one years earlier, without batting an eye about it. Who was cleverly coquettish with her extratemporal knowledge to share just the amounts needed to redirect others, keeping the big picture a well-understood secret between herself and Skaia.
She was masterful with regards to Time. Her will combined with Skaia’s to nearly self-generate and self-inspire plans to her advantage out of nowhere. Serious stuff!
GG: that reminds me, i was thinking of implementing a system to keep some of these confusing conversations simple and linear GA: Does It By Any Chance Have To Do With Passwords GG: yeah! i guess someone told you? GA: Yes You GA: You Delivered News Of The System By Demanding A Password From Me GG: aaaaa you see?????? GG: you nearly just gave me the idea for the plan in the first place paradoxically from my own future self!!! GG: i just find that kind of thing annoying for some reason, it doesnt feel right… GG: i would rather ideas came from the place they actually came from GA: Thats A Reasonable Attitude
GG: i wonder if we will ever be able to start a conversation without having a ridiculous argument about the password system? CG: IF YOU WOULD DROP THE PASSWORD SYSTEM AND LET FUTURE ME TALK TO YOU, HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU AN ANSWER.
Jade is now telling Karkat to shove his atemporal communication up his nook. How did she move from being comfortably immersed in metatemporal information loops to writing them off as undesirable, like her temporally-challenged Space player peer?
TG: i guess im sorta used to it by now i dont think of hours going by the same way anymore TG: i mean TG: they are my hours but not everyone elses theyre kind of like private hours all to myself TG: while everyone else is sort of in slow motion stuck in the thick of the alpha GG: hmmmm… GG: i dont know if i get that but ok! TG: well yeah TG: my thing is time yours is space TG: pretty different things TG: you GET things about space i dont
Kanaya and Calliope had been dreaming awake on Prospit for just as much of their lives as Jade. In Calliope’s case, she actually dreamt more! So why was Jade the only one to precisely see and rig up these complicated time loops? In the early days she was able to use a Memory modus with perfect accuracy. Are we really supposed to believe that she was so immersed in dream-images of her own day-to-day life, so much better at merely remembering shadows of what she saw compared to Kanaya et al, that she had flawless success every time she used a memory modus? The clouds present information in disorganized snippets, she couldn’t possibly have correlated it all with her moment to moment life that well! And are we supposed to buy that all said imprinted understanding suddenly vanished the instant her dreamself bit the dust?
You suddenly understand jack shit.
Where are you? What just happened?
You consult your reminders to get your bearings on what to do next.
But you can’t remember what they mean at all. You have a feeling these are all useless now.
(Note that the Seer is the understanding class.)
She never got any “sense” about the trolls, who initially hadn’t shown up in the clouds… but who also existed in a temporally independent realm. She never had a sense about Bec, either, who she’d also not seen in the clouds for the longest time… but as a First Guardian, he also represents the epitome of Space, Time’s opposite. Were the clouds really ALL that had to do with her “senses”, how she sometimes said she didn’t know how she knew, she just knew that she knew??
That used to be our default assumption… but in light of her incredible ability to innately sense, retain, and conduct events through Time compared to her fellow Prospit dreamers, if Seer abilities had been contributing to what she could sense and correlate from moment to moment, it would make quite a bit more sense! Don’t you think?
A Seer would support her allies in battle not with her weapons, but her vision. She would sift through dross of her comrades’ poor tactical inclinations and examine the grim consequences. A Seer would not charge into the fray headlong but direct it as a conductor with a baton. She would have the sight to eschew the obvious gambits, and find the path to victory disguised cleverly as setback, or even imminent defeat.
So, just how radically opposed was she to her old state of being, once she came into her role?
EB: so what is the future like? EB: or uh, the 3x future… EB: do we win??? TG: oh you know TG: noirs outta control TG: rose is crazy jades crazier and youre TG: well youre you
Rose is “crazy”, who was busy inverting into the opposite of her role, temporarily becoming something she wasn’t meant to be.
Jade is “crazier”, who was un-inverting from the state in which Dave had known her all her life, realizing her true potential as something completely different!
JADE: AUGH! JADE: that is SO SELFISH!!! JADE: i cant believe this JADE: how can you say these things, dont you remember anything that the queen told us? JADE: that we would eventually build a new world and make a future together with our friends? JADE: dont you remember being excited about finding out what that meant? JADESPRITE: yes JADESPRITE: but it was just a story JADESPRITE: it was never going to come true JADE: yes it will!!! JADE: some of us, the ones who still have hope, are fighting for that RIGHT NOW
GG: i mean, i understand why she is upset GG: but she is completely inconsolable, and wont listen to reason about anything! GG: and i guess i could deal with that but… GG: the frustrating thing is that shes actually me :( GG: i really dont think i would act like that
GG: but im trying to be strong about all that so we can keep moving forward GG: and if i can then why cant she?
Her old and new selves weren’t irreconcilable forever, though. As Karkat pointed out, Jadesprite represented not just an opposite, but a reflection of all the personality traits and flaws Jade didn’t like about herself, couldn’t accept… Jade even made a comment along the lines of how she wouldn’t want to go God-Tier if it meant merging with her! But just like how Quest Bed ascension merges the dream, 'imaginary’ self with its reality counterpart, the act of merging active Jade and passive, inverse Jadesprite – an act of acceptance of her flaws, finding balance between her role and its shadow – was what was truly necessary for her to find true power for the sake of her friends and everyone else.
After her alchemy binge and a couple awful conversations with trolls, Jade sets out to contribute to her teammates’ efforts by developing her own ability as a Witch of Space. Not knowing what exactly that entails, her first instinct is to go around viewing her teammates’ physical locations.
This isn’t Witch behavior at all! She’s acting too much like a Seer, meaning she hasn’t yet recovered from her class inversion. So as unofficial Seer of Time (note the red goggles!) what does she actually end up looking at?
Dead people.
Which brings us to the question of why she inverted in the first place. We’ve always known about Dave’s collection of preserved dead things, and later Aradia explicitly pointed out that dealing with the Time aspect means confronting death:
AA: alpha dave still has a long way to go AA: hes still not at ease with his mortality AA: but people like us have to be!
And what had Jade already told John about her own mortality, hundreds of pages earlier?
GG: its nothing that secret or personal or anything…. GG: it is just something kind of sad and weird for you to see EB: what is it? GG: it is my dead dream self GG: it has been there for years, i always knew i would die but i did not realize it would go like this….
And don’t forget, she was punished specifically when she tried to See Dave, the Time player!
Remember back when the Seer of Light and the Witch of Space were first announced in Nanna’s journal, and people thought Rose was the Witch and Jade was the Seer?
Jade exhibited every last feature one would expect of a Seer of Time. If she wasn’t inverted, then all Seers of Time must be redundant and useless! She went against her role, entrusting the future to and through others when she was supposed to take action herself, and in the process inadvertently created the same enemy she was trying to abjure, bunnyways. She was trying to lead everyone around playing the flute, when she was really meant to play the bass-line.
(EDIT 5: Added more evidence and the follow-up link, as well the link for Jadesprite and LE’s agony.) (EDIT 6, on 2014.09.28: Added a quote and link to Andrew’s active/passive Prospit/Derse Q&A, a link to examples of witchy Jade being 'bossy’ to fit her role, and a few brief notes on how she found 'balance’ by accepting and merging with her flaws, finding balance between her role and its shadow.)
I just can’t believe he planned something like this for so long!
NEXT:To see who will invert next and why, read this series of posts: (1) (2) (3)! Jane Crocker is very dangerous…
Don’t you think his behavior’s a little strange, in a somewhat specific way? We might be able to read more into this than simple stockholm syndrome.
In fact, inverted roles may be partially at play!
If my role list for inversion holds any water - which it may not, where some of the non-(Seer/Witch) classes are concerned - then if Tavros inverted his role, he’d act like a Thief of Blood.
As a Thief, selfish, aggressive, acquisitive. As a Blood player, belligerent, concerned with bonds and relationships, averse from Breath’s freedom and levity.
John may have ghosted some inversion in his flip-out, earlier. Like I mentioned a little while ago:
In Homestuck, the Scratches have shown us the power of the Heart aspect: the strength of a soul’s uniqueness to help determine how reality unfolds, even across vastly different timelines. Take Dave’s Stiller shades, for example, an inclination that was built into his very personality!
Those souls can be turned against themselves, of course, but this is already accounted for by their role. Role inversion is the (potentially unwise) refuge in which a hero may reside when the role they were assigned - crafted to best suit their very essence - frustrates them. It’s an opposing wellspring of power that exists by the very virtue of their original one.
What you’re seeing with John is more the ghosting of role inversion than of some sort of role ‘shift’ to something completely unrelated. In fact, you saw it in Karkat, too! As an Heir of Breath trapped in a confined space, John has been unable to fly freely or progress, even to amuse himself with his destined quest; as such, he’s ghosted Blood, the aspect of suffering, bonds, and unity. Karkat has been fed up with leading, fed up with his lack of romantic progress, is tired of being let down and hurt so many times, and is thus currently entertaining a reckless display of Breath: abandoning bonds for freedom and quest, flying off into the void like a fucknig piece of gargbage. Everyone is liable to ghost their inverted role from time to time, to varying extents.
And immediately after doing so, he meets Tavros, who may have been stuck in this unhealthy attitude for over half a year!
Vriska can be a very corrupting individual, especially with regards to Tavros. She cut short his development countless times. A Thief of Light, where Light can mean mental clarity, would, wouldn’t she? So in up to a year of forced proximity to a Vriska who hasn’t learned all her lessons yet, it’s no surprise that he would be forced down through apathy into inversion altogether.
Keep in mind, I don’t expect any Thief of Blood powers. But attitudes alone can emulate and accomplish one’s role, and the contrast between a Breath player whose wholly foresaken the heroic attitude tailored to his soul with our main hero, who only lightly and temporarily did, should be quite a learning moment between the two. Or at least for us interested onlookers. :)
We also may be able to interpret a little more about how the romantic drama will unfold with the upcoming events, by keeping this in mind. Even with inversion aside, I don’t expect Vriska to be that interested in Tavros in his current state, not nearly as much as he believes or desires!
When Tavros transitioned into this unfortunate, warped attitude, I wouldn’t expect Vriska to hesitate to exploit it for whatever undertaking with which they’re busy.
(EDIT: More on the romspec of his relationship with Vriska, as a result of this, can be found over here.)
I think that these inversions we are seeing may stage something that will happen with Dirk. Since Heart has to do with soul, and he is a Prince. I think being a destroyer of Heart would lead to inversions or stability of such.
Princes are a hard case for inversion, though: As destroyers of their aspect, they naturally ghost the aspect’s opposite without any actual inversion! It’s what they’re supposed to do. Mind is the aspect of logic and appearances/façade, and that’s essentially Dirk’s philosophy. (Albeit, one he pours the strength and determination of his Heart into with a shocking degree!)
There almost certainly will be a major, powerful inversion, the way the stage is being set. But Dirk is a poor candidate.
GG: I just want to go to sleep and not wake up forever.
Isn’t that a disturbing image/speech pair for a Maid of Life? Especially when you consider that “dreaming and not waking up forever” is death in Homestuck!
She wields a red pitchfork even; all she needs is a bit of dead-friends/dead-relatives/dead-relationships trauma and a metaphorical perforated tail. (And maybe a mind-control headband with the Condesce pushing her over the edge.)
There’s even circumstantial evidence that Gamzee intends to provoke this inversion, hinted by Kurloz:
And he certainly succeeded in denying her the comfort and stability of a guide to direct her goals, with the temporary Tavrisprite debacle.
Her inverted role, by the way? If my chart holds up, she’d be analogous to a Bard of Doom. Scary, scary stuff!
Like I said just because someone does something that’s associated with another aspect doesn’t mean they’re really associated with that one.
I think the thing is that Rose’s entire character arc was about her prognostications of doom which became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean you also have to look at Sollux, who definitely deal in information like a light player and compiled the code for SGRUB, showing an intense knowledge of the game inside and out. Vriska was another light player and showed her shadow by actively creating what was fated, which is what made their session the alpha session. It was her fault that the session turned out the way it did, but she also caused it to conform to the alpha timeline. Despite thinking she was an agent of luck, she was really an agent of fate.
If we look at Equius and Roxy, the association with “information” doesn’t really make sense. Equius didn’t know anything about the game. In fact anything he did to help the game along like hiding the cueball were done purely by accident. Sure Roxy is smart and messes around with technology, but she doesn’t seem to know that much about the game, or anything extra beside what Calliope has given her. Equius does however help others greatly interact with the physical world by making prosthetics, and Roxy with her appearifying sort of almost has some of the ability Jade has with her spacey powers. Also Roxy seems to be the only one who’s actually concerned with what’s around her by living with the carapaces and actually being the only one helping innocent bystanders. She’s very concerned with the physical reality around her, moreso than any other characters. Equius is very physical as well.
UU: the void aspect is fascinating, thoUgh. UU: its heroes preside over the essence of lack, or nothingness. the obfUscation of knowledge, or its oUtright destrUction.
Whoops! :)
What I think you’re missing here is that aspects cover wide and varied ground each; understandable, if they’re to encompass all reality. Heart, for instance, covers both the soul and love, all that someone would be innately inclined to pursue to form their base decisions, the impact of their uniqueness on how reality unfolds, while Mind covers choices, logic, façade, and karma resulting from the decency of one’s choices independent of their character. Those are a lot of things!
So, let’s have a breakdown of examples. Light, associated with Skaia, encompasses information and communication, sight, fortune/probability, agency, and mental clarity. Void, associated with Horrorterrors, encompasses nothingness/lack, submission, misfortune, obfuscation, mystery, the destruction of information and destruction itself. EDIT: Light is also associated with IMPORTANCE, and Void is associated with IRRELEVANCE. But I won’t cover that in detail here.
Both of these things are reflected in the personalities, tendencies, and abilities of Light and Void players and entities, both in their personalities/inclinations, their natural abilities, and in their actual exercises of power. Time to gather a shitload of story links. Here goes…
LIGHT EXAMPLES:
- Information/Communication
Walls and walls of text from Light players like Aranea and Rose, lampshaded by (was it Meenah who sarcastically remarked “light players”?) the eager consumption and creation of information, like a book or a FAQ.
Light is associated with eyes symbolically. Rose is the only kid introduced without glasses obscuring their vision. Her mother happens to be notable among the ectobiological parents for her lack of eyes!
Vriska robbed Terezi of her eyesight!!!
- Fortune/Probability
Vriska’s focus on luck, luck stealing and manipulation.
Skaia’s arrangement of coincidences in players’ favor to fuel its loops.
Vriska forcibly taking control of others with her psychic abilities.
Rose bemoaning the lack of power to change fate, but - rather than giving in - trying desperately to find a way to arrest control of it.
Vriska’s psychic control being extended through her abilities to reach even past the barriers between universes. When she tried to wake John up for the first time, note the Light symbol that flashes in her eye!
The ability to put people to sleep and to wake them up is an exercise of controlling their level of agency, certainly.
- Mental Clarity
Vriska constantly tearing down Tavros, traumatizing him, corrosive to the point that you see him in now with John.
The constant pursuit of Void players of a loftily considered goal, the constant inability to reach it. Bow-firing for Equius, relationships for Roxy.
Sleep, Roxy’s habitual drunken sleep tendencies also a form of submission below, to an extent, and Rose’s ability to put others to sleep with her dark powers!
- Submission
Equius’s imperious demands of people to submit (inviting submission or changes in submission, as an Heir of Void), and later inviting others to have him submit, enjoying/fetishizing submission to them.
Rose being unintelligible when grimdark, and Roxy’s habitual unintelligibility and typos!
Rose’s monitor blacking out on grimdark descent, or habitually so as Roxy’s mother post-Scratch, and Roxy’s own habitual blackouts.
Rose’s grimdark descent giving her the ability to ignore her pain and emotions, looking at her and John’s dead parents only to remark that Jack isn’t there.
Equius encourages Nepeta to hide in a saferoom, blocking the door with cabinets to disguise the fact that the room ever existed.
Void is symbolically associated with cracked shades like Equius’s. The imagery has been repeated with Roxy and explained by Lord English’s cracking of the void, and Rose's blacking out upon finally going grimdark was shown through Kanaya wearing them!
- Misfortune
That which comes from doomed timelines by the Horrorterrors’ influence being sources of bad luck, “Generally Inauspicious”.
As a Rogue of Void, Roxy purloins and shares secrets almost uncontrollably, consistently knows things she seemingly shouldn’t, and hidden information like sexuality is an open book to her. (It’s interesting how early on, Rose always pursued logical explanations and was almost always wrong, whereas Roxy sounds like a conspiracy theorist and is almost always completely right!) She also manages to Roguishly purloin things like pumpkins and cats from places she seemingly shouldn’t, the items vanishing quite mysteriously from their owners.
Equius encourages Nepeta to hide in a saferoom, blocking the door with cabinets to disguise the fact that the room ever existed.
- Destruction
Rose destroying temples and game edifices to quickly withdraw secrets within, or gaining immense destructive power with her descent in general.
Equius, an Heir of Void and passive nexus for the aspect, can’t so much as touch anything without breaking and destroying it.
Rose heading up a plan to attempt the destruction of the Green Sun. A Sun!A light source!!!
- Irrelevance - TBD, when I work this into its own post… (EDIT: see “circumstantial importance” below.)
Okay, that’s by no means a comprehensive list, but I’m done for now. Whew. You had better thank me for going through all this trouble! >:T
I’m not saying that Rose can’t share viewpoints from other aspects on occasion, or that there aren’t slight overlaps between things like Void, Time, and Doom here and there. (Which, given their proximity to destruction, Derse, and the Horrorterrors, should be no surprise anyway.) No, what I’m saying is that there’s a specific relationship between Void and Light that Andrew has been trying to TELL us!
EDIT: Void is also seemingly associated with the Ocean and Rain! And I was able to best describe Light’s ‘luck’ in this ask about circumstantial importance, reproduced below for rebloggability:
There are a lot of types of power across Homestuck’s aspects, and power over reality is the acted manifestation of will. And if your will results in powerful effects over reality, you could be said to be “important”, in a sense.
Now, while something like Life is power in the form of the raw energy to have a say over reality (optimism/energy, wealth, status, raw ability), and something like Space refers to the physical ability to move and reorganize and craft and blast, a very “physical” and “physics” definition of power… Light’s brand of power, of ‘importance’, is a bit trickier. After all, doesn’t Light mean direct will and importance?
What Light’s power is, in this respect, is better described in a slightly more nuanced way… let’s call it, “Circumstantial Importance”.
Circumstantial Importance regards just how important something HAPPENS TO BE, in a given situation, regardless of its actual ‘strength’ or ‘status’. The thing in question - whether it be an object, an idea, or a person’s will - might seem utterly insignificant, or of INCREDIBLE import, depending on the situation!
A d4 (four-sided die), dusty and forgotten in a corner, is insignificant. A d4 placed so that another just happens to step on its sharp corner? Suddenly more important. A d4 being rolled to determine which unfortunate soul has to be eaten on a stranded lifeboat? MUCH more important!
Circumstantial Importance can be the difference between an infinity of paths into the void and the one that will lead to relevance, further import, and possible victory. Circumstantial Importance can be the distinction between a random string of letters and the code that makes life possible. Circumstantial Importance can make the glance and angle of a sharp blade’s swing just fortunate enough to pierce the defenses of a First Guardian.
Though, applying it to objects so heavily is indeed a bit misleading; its real power is determined through the vertices of people’s wills.
Will is what assigns importance to situations and paths, what imbues objects, ideas, and truths with circumstantial significance. Vriska wasn’t stealing the importance of Terezi’s *coin* in that fateful flip. She was stealing just enough of *Terezi’s* ‘luck’, just enough of her coincidental significance, that the fact that she had willed a coin flip against Vriska would have NO CIRCUMSTANTIAL IMPORTANCE in the course of reality compared to Vriska’s will to leave!
…But only moments later, Vriska voluntarily allowed circumstantial importance to Terezi’s next decision, to the choice to stab her or not to stab her, as a challenge to prove to her that she wouldn’t have the heart to kill Vriska even if she had the opening.
For Vriska to steal all the circumstantial significance from someone is to consign their will to irrelevance, to cast them into the Void just as the monster on the meteor fell below. Putting someone to sleep, or controlling their actions, is robbing them of significance, too: Their wills aren’t important if they happen to be incapacitated or moving involuntarily. And one who drinks alcohol or submits to others is divesting their will of power and importance voluntarily!
In a review of Eoin Colfer’s continuation of the Hitchhiker’s series, science fiction author and critic Adam Roberts wrote:
And here’s the thing: the main thrust of the orginal Hitch-Hiker’s was never the world-building; it was the little jolts and leaps of comprehension: it was the ah-ha! and the ha-ha! They are terribly terribly valuable and wonderful things, those; and [Douglas] Adams understood (this is what makes him so significant a figure) that the little jolts and leaps of conceptual or perspectival comprehension that are the trademark of SF — the epiphany, the mind-expansion, the sense of wonder — and little jolts and leaps of comedic comprehension that make humour work (that make us laugh) are actually versions of one another.
Andrew Hussie understands this as well, which may be one of the reasons why his work reminds many people of Adams’.
As someone who took and enjoyed a Sci-fi and Fantasy Literature class, yes, this!!!!
Well, I don’t see anything really new or serious. I already covered Tavros’s attitude in this post, how it may reflect role inversion, and Vriska seems about how I’d normally expect.
Though, since many of you guys seem to somehow be viewing disaster in this update, I guess I should clarify my thoughts on the matter…
Vriska appears to have finally lost her vital spark. Which is… a bummer. Maybe Doc Scratch considers empowering Jack Noir to be ‘good enough’? Or fuck it, the whole thing was a prank.
So is Vriska inverting things now as well, or is this just what being dead does to you?
I have a question, tfw: What comic have you been reading?!
Vriska seems nearly the same as ever. Perhaps disillusioned with serious, flustered relationship pursuits by being, well, two years dead, and busy getting things done while probably leading Tavros on to speed things up.
VRISKA: Dammit, Tavros. You can’t 8e slacking off like that. VRISKA: I told you, we aren’t fucking around anymore. This is serious 8usiness.
She wouldn’t be so busy, would she?
Vriska isn’t out of the game. She has a plan, and is using Tavros to help search for something. Something important. I have no doubt that she’s on a path to fulfill Doc Scratch’s prophecy of Vriska-wrought unfathomable destruction.
hey I’m not sure but I think the John-rose-vriska-kanaya shipping n-drangle’s wavelength just collapsed. john loses, he gets nothing. good day, sir. or so it would seem. vriska said it “didn’t work out” with the beta john, in any case.
That’s not quite the whole story when you think about it.
Here’s the quote again, as a reminder, though I’m speaking beyond the quote and not to it:
VRISKA: It was fine. For a while. VRISKA: It didn’t really work out. JOHN: oh. VRISKA: We crossed paths every now and then after that. VRISKA: Things stayed pretty friendly 8etween us. VRISKA: Until he died.
She broke up with an age-locked John who basically would not have been able to grow up. Furthermore, she wouldn’t have been able to grow up much, either! Whereas - unlike beta John - our John has matured enough to realize Con Air was corny. That’s a big difference!
(And, though it’s splitting hairs, we aren’t presently aware which party wanted most to break up in their prior relationship, nor why.)
Anyway, none of that is too convincing or relevant. However, there’s a huge reason I can guarantee you that Vriska isn’t out of the romance game.
I’ll say it twice, the second time in large text, so you’ll remember it.
Vriska’s current relationship with Tavros is horrible, unhealthy, and will necessarily shatter.
Again!
Vriska’s current relationship with Tavros is horrible, unhealthy, and will necessarily shatter.
It’s inevitable!
The current state of things is clearly bringing out the worst in Tavros. (See the role inversion link at the top of this post, for instance.) Homestuck is not going to leave him in an eternity of this; that’s a hell he really didn’t earn!
So if the present situation is unsustainable, which ways can it go from here? Let’s itemize some possibilities for where Vriska will eventually end up.
Tavros undergoes severe, sudden character development, does a 180º, puts paid to the relationship… and decides to pair up with Vriska again anyway.(UNLIKELY! Recovery on Tavros’s part will almost certainly lead to a permanent break.)
Vriska and/or Tavros end up double-dead. (Why so much screentime, then? Just to cause unfathomable destruction and then kill them off??)
The relationship ending or being separated somehow, Vriska comes back into the picture somehow and pursues John and/or Jake.(BINGO!)
What Vriska and Tavros have right now is going to shatter brilliantly. Either offscreen, or possibly onscreen to some plot or character development effect. (Unfathomable destruction, for example?) And almost certainly thereafter, the romantic loose ends will seek healthier resolutions, with the plot of the story all too happy to oblige.
As to the “John-rose-vriska-kanaya shipping n-drangle”? That wavelength collapsed a little while ago, with a near - not absolute, but almost certain - confirmation of Rose/Kanaya recently. John’s side of things have become more complicated to make up for this, with the introduction of Roxy Lalonde to take Rose’s place in the competition with Vriska.
Hope that clears things up! No, I’m not quite sure where it’s going to go after that, from here. :)
I’m sorry BKE but I still do not see Dirk and Gamzee as being compatible in any way whatsoever.
I’m too exhausted to compile all my reasoning right now, but I can at least link to an outdated post of mine on it? (fakeedit: This one’s a bit better.)
The key is to look at it from Gamzee’s perspective. There’s literally not a single other potential candidate.
Applying classes and aspects to characters from hit manga DEATHNOTE Do you think Light Yagami is better seen as a bard of doom or inverted Life or light player? I'm inclined to call him a page because they seem to be the type who are most easily inverted into their opposite aspect.
Anonymous
Light Yagami of Death Note provides an interestingly complicated case. For one, you have to worry if Light was inverting his role by pursuing his goals as the villain protagonist, or if he was instead realizing his true role… which is really hard to say! (Personally, I lean towards the latter, but I’m kind of a Seer of Doom so you might disagree with my enthusiastic drooling at destruction.)
However, the most confusing factor is all the aspects at play:
Mind. The players constantly anticipate each others’ potential moves and decisions with the information they would have at hand, and - more importantly - deviously manipulate the façades each put forward.
Doom. The eponymous Death Note is an artifact which not only enforces Doom on an individual, but also enforces the nature of that Doom and what the victims do with the last moments of their lives. Both of these factors are the specific purview of the Doom aspect.
Rage. The utopia envisioned by Light Yagami is one ruled by Rage, where the Damocles’ Sword of a swift death as punishment becomes a source of oppressive fear, stifling peoples’ views of the possibility of committing crimes, revolt, or even laziness! This is the essence of Rage, the aspect of the restriction of perceptions through fear and anger.
Light. The war we witnessed in Death Note was largely one of information. Light Yagami started out with an informational advantage, and carefully titrated what facts or non-facts were insinuated where, that false information hid what was true and pervasive truths hid that which was more deeply true. Much of our protagonist’s actions were simply (1) gathering information from all available resources, including unlikely ones, about his opponents and targets, (2) leveraging the information his opponents did not know to act freely despite ensuring that all information they gathered about himself was inconclusive or exempting, and (3) executing individuals and plans with said information, including the ultimate and most important piece of data: the true name of each victim, written in the Death Note to guarantee their demise.
It’s a rather tough decision, a close (and by nature subjective) call, but if I had to stand by my strongest feelings…
I would say that Light Yagami is a Prince of Light, and that L is a Mage of Mind.
(Disclaimer: If you haven’t seen Death Note, don’t spoil yourself by wiki-ing it right now! Just watch or read it (I’d say watch), it’s excellent.)
Coming up with which Homestuck roles the protagonists would have in works I enjoy has become a bit of an unintentional habit, lately! For example, I just got through reading most of the Ciaphas Cain: Hero of the Imperium series, and if I had to put labels in it, I’d say that Ciaphas is a Knight of Doom, Amberley Vail is a Rogue of Light, and Ferik Jurgen is a Page of Void.
Yes, I’m seriously doing this. I have lost control of my life. (but at least I’ll restrict it to the main character)
You see, I got an ask that I answered in shorthand:
Anonymous asked: "whats the title of spongebob and squidward?“
Spongebob - Bard of Time Patrick - Bard of Mind Squidward - Bard of Hope
Just pulled those out of my ass, but it makes a little sense to me I guess.
And then I thought about that first one a bit more. And the Art Teacher Squidward episode.
And how he drew a circle backwards from a face in that same episode. And how he was The Quickster in the superhero episode. And his prodigious Krabby Patty output, how he’s always ‘ready’, on-time, the procrastination episode, showing up everywhere and at all different angles, all the Space stuff he does with his shape and size a destroyer class of Time would naturally ghost etc etc. Even the destructive repeated time travel in that episode where they went back to help/harm Mermaid Man and Barnacle Boy and their efforts to thwart Man-Ray from taking over the city, and ended up re-visiting the moment a thousand times cloneways at the end.
so i guess spongebob is bard of time because he wastes everyone’s time? (also patrick as bard of mind is fucking perfect.)
Yes, pretty much that.
It’s just…
Remember how Spongebob uses Spatulakind, and at one point, 1/2spatulakind. Recall how he has a trademark piece of 'cool’ eyewear for when he’s serious (jellyfishing). Imagine Spongebob dialing into a spot on the timeline with a floating pair of Time Patties. And how often he wears suits. Imagine him in a god-tier Bard of Time outfit with a sharp-edged triangle hat and a square codpiece. And now, on top of all that, you’re now suddenly noticing how similar the Spongebob Squarepants theme tune is to Dave’s Accelerate tune, and combining the two in your head.
Think about it. Quite an image, isn’t it?
(Okay I thought that’d be longer, but that’s all I wanted to say. Screw you anons for forcing my mind to get carried about these things! You’re keeping me from starting that Breath and Blood post with out of control weirdthinks.)
I recently realized and edited the following into my Jade the Seer post:
(EDIT: And if you recall, in the early days she was able to use a Memory modus with perfect accuracy. Are we really supposed to believe that she was so immersed in dream-images of her own day-to-day life, so good at remembering shadows of what she saw, that she had flawless success every time she used a memory modus? And that all said imprinted understanding suddenly vanished the instant her dreamself bit the dust? That used to be our default assumption… but if Seer abilities had been contributing to what she could sense from moment to moment, it would make quite a bit more sense! Don’t you think?)
Do you think there is any way for those of us who get non-canon results on that personality test to translate them into canon results? When I take it, I get "Monk of Blaze," which doesn't seem at all helpful to me in terms of picking a canon role.
Anonymous
Well, regardless of what you get, you first want to save a record of your results readouts from the personality tests, especially the second one. That way you can see your second and third runner-up aspects, and combine that with the non-canon class descriptions (and the descriptions that the personality test behind them gives you, for the first section) to see what fits you.
A great degree of subjectivity is necessary to bridge the gap from that test to what’s fitting, but now that we have an accurate feel of what vectors of influence on reality are behind the aspects, and the classes that channel them-
- I don’t think it should be all that hard.
For Blaze specifically, the non-canon description they gave is:
And finally, Blaze players control Fire, as well as gain powers in motivating others, since their domain is Drive and Passion.
That seems the domain of Blood and Breath, with a dash of Heart. Use your other scores to see where you fit best under those aspects and their definitions, and then - taking the personality description that led to Monk into account - decide whether you’re active or passive (a Monk is rather passive, if I recall), and which of the six ways you channel it through yourself or others (Use, Create, Destroy, Redistribute, Understand, Manipulate) to determine your canon class.
Is there even the slightest chance that Lord English won’t “already here’d” himself to the location of the Ultimate Treasure, when Vriska finds out where it is? Could this be leading to the long-fabled Unfathomable Destruction?
You’ve got the right idea! It's pretty obvious that this is the route to unfathomable destruction, or at least has something to do with it.
I mean, look at his faction’s plan so far:
Have Doc Scratch ensure Vriska gets killed, via Gamzee. (For an explanation, click here and control-f for “Vriska is a very unique case”.)
Detonate dream bubbles and crack reality in an alleged search-and-destroy mission for Calliope’s ghost.
Vriska will use the cracks as reference points to decode the path straight to an Ultimate Treasure.
???
Unfathomable Destruction.
Lord English has a damn peg leg. He’s Skipper Plumbthroat, and Vriska is leading him straight to the booty.
What is it? Well, possibly the legendary jujus that Calliope and Caliborn have in their chests, launched away by Calliope’s efforts in a part of the cherubs’ session we haven’t seen yet. It’s a safe bet; the only problem is that we have no idea what they are.
Tumblr user mousathe14 is sarcastically liveblogging his way from the start of Homestuck! The liveblog is mixed in with his normal posts, but he seems a swell guy in general, so you might follow him anyway. I plan on tracking his Homestuck tag with relish!
The drought of homestuck liveblogs have been terrible for my psyche. This is welcome entertainment, especially when so thoughtful, well written, and ohh the delicious sarcasm! I love this, I love him and you all.
Okay, in rebloggable, coherent format… swindlydeedlydoo just pointed out that my role inversion scheme would mark down Vriska’s inverted, opposite role as a “Page of Void”.
Not that she’s inverting her role, like Tavros might be starting to; she’s proving the opposite, in fact:
VRISKA: John, tell me what you see here. JOHN: um… JOHN: where? VRISKA: Right here. VRISKA: What is this? This thing I’m holding? JOHN: a black piece of paper? VRISKA: No, John. VRISKA: This is 8ULLSHIT is what it is.
I don’t think he made these maps, but that callback did foreshadow these maps. Dave’s efforts ended up not just with ‘maps’, but pluggable coordinates that even Rose could understand.
VRISKA: Turns out plotting the relative geographical features of an infinite 8lack expanse of pure void is every 8it as moronic as it sounds. 8ut that didn’t stop some ancient eldritch chucklefuck from doing exactly that.
What Vriska’s using are not technically treasure maps, but rather 'topographical’ ones; Vriska and Tavros are simply laying the clues and hints they’re finding over these charts. So, it’s technically possible that Dave forged the maps - or channelled them from other maps that a Horrorterror had already charted, crystallizing them - and then merely used that with his understanding of Time to find the route between his session and the Sun across them, coordinate-ways.
So… yeah, come to think of it, these could be Dave’s maps. Making their presence yet another convenience provided by the plans of Lord English’s faction.
[10/22/12 7:36:26 PM] blastyoboots: [10/22/12 6:47:53 PM] Venemesis: do you think vriska hasn’t learnt her lesson from last time? baiting LE could mirror the calamity that happened in the alternate universe when bec noir followed her sugary pixie trail and killed the surviving trolls over her selfish actions.
I didn’t draw the parallel somehow
[10/22/12 7:36:35 PM] blastyoboots: I mean I knew that could happen, but didn’t connect it with that earlier event
[10/22/12 7:36:57 PM] blastyoboots: anyway:
[10/22/12 7:37:25 PM] blastyoboots: the lynchpin in all of this is knowing that Vriska’s death was orchestrated by Doc Scratch
[10/22/12 7:37:32 PM] blastyoboots: PRECISELY BECAUSE she would eventually do this
[10/22/12 7:37:49 PM] blastyoboots: that’s a solid fact
[10/22/12 7:38:22 PM] blastyoboots: so whatever she ends up doing will end up playing right into LE’s hands
[10/22/12 7:44:37 PM] Venemesis: so it was predetirmined to fail to begin with? i just cant understand why she would make the same mistake twiice as she said spending so many years dead, made her reflect on the bad descisions she made - well at least that was the impression i got :/
[10/22/12 7:45:34 PM] blastyoboots: is it really so analogous that it isn’t understandable that she wouldn’t see the danger?
[10/22/12 7:45:50 PM] blastyoboots: Lord English is wrecking shit, there’s a treasure out there, 1 + 1 = 2
[10/22/12 7:46:19 PM] blastyoboots: and Lord English is *seemingly* out there trying to destroy Calliope’s ghost, though that’s not the whole goal
[10/22/12 7:46:56 PM] blastyoboots: as far as she’s concerned, she’s redirecting existing chaos to her advantage, not causing appreciably more damage
[10/22/12 7:48:33 PM] Venemesis: it just seems like a bad plan collectively, the 3 parts to it
[10/22/12 7:49:52 PM] Venemesis: meenah is not having much luck getting her ghost army together, but aranea reassures her that someone is out there with the same enthusiam for it… could she mean roxy?
[10/22/12 7:50:15 PM] blastyoboots: she means that the Thief of Attention is going to lend a hand
[10/22/12 7:50:44 PM] Venemesis: vriska said she wasnt interested in that part though?
[10/22/12 7:50:54 PM] blastyoboots: not directly
[10/22/12 7:51:08 PM] blastyoboots: as in, not in participating, or in the army-to-actually-fight-LE result
[10/22/12 7:51:24 PM] blastyoboots: but the slow gathering can help direct LE where she wants him to go
[10/22/12 7:52:20 PM] Venemesis: wouldnt that clash with meenahs will for leadership though? two thieves getting together cant be a good thing right?
[10/22/12 7:52:35 PM] blastyoboots: Vriska ain’t leadin’ the army
[10/22/12 7:53:01 PM] blastyoboots: she’s just going to be the attention wh- sorry, the attention-getter
[10/22/12 7:53:03 PM] blastyoboots: :)
[10/22/12 7:53:07 PM] Venemesis: hehehe
[10/22/12 7:53:33 PM] blastyoboots: the afterlife is Bubblr
[10/22/12 7:53:49 PM] blastyoboots: they could easily pull off an Invisible Children thing, urging people to stop Lord Kony
[10/22/12 7:54:08 PM] Venemesis: lol
[10/22/12 7:54:34 PM] Venemesis: how do you think the plan will fare?
[10/22/12 7:55:51 PM] blastyoboots: well, given that the premise that Lord English wasn’t expecting and provoking *exactly this* is flawed
[10/22/12 7:55:55 PM] blastyoboots: I’d say “not that well at all”
So it would appear that Rose is drinking heavily either right before or after going on a date with Kanaya. Could the Curse of the Intermission Ships strike again?
The way I see it, there are a number of possibilities.
Rose already went on the date, and it didn’t go well.
Rose is about to go on her date, and is VERY NERVOUS.
(An outside possibility:) Rose went on the date, and Kanaya rather enthusiastically brought up the idea of having children.
You might want to think about that last one for a minute, about the conversation Kanaya was having with Porrim. Andrew has mentioned on his formspring in the past that cross-species reproduction is possible ectobiologically, and it’s easy to infer that doing so could blend Troll traits with humans’ ability to mate and repopulate sans mother grub, creating a viable species.
Oh, and on an irrelevant note, I wanted to mention that Terezi’s protection of a sleeping Karkat - keeping Damara from doing X-rated things to his defenseless body - is a further possible sign that Terezi/Dave could naturally fall apart to let Karkat back in again. The romantic arc pattern seems to be working in that direction; fitting if something has a chance of happening to Dave later in the story. Just somethin’ to keep an eye on, is all.
Lakobie: I just realized the intrinsic flaws each grouping needs to overcome
Lakobie: Knights and Pages suffer from a weak sense of self, with knights having esteem issues and “overacting” to cover flaws, and pages having weak personalities and generally being pushovers
Lakobie: Mages and Seers tend to lose focus on the big picture, instead focusing on minute details without first reasearching the proper information and examining all options
Lakobie: Theifs and Rogues rely too much on instinct. They tend to have problems thinking about the long term consequenses of their actions, when they need to actually think their plans out more, like planning a heist properly
Lakobie: thats as far as I’ve gotten hmm
Lakobie: I note that both JAde and Fef seem to be too optimistc about fate
Lakobie: they just think “everything is gonna turn out okay” but never actually take an active role. Jade grows out of this while fef sits in a hornpile
Lakobie: hmph i can see how it relates to john but fail to see how it relates to Mituna and Damara with the information we had
Lakobie: unlesssss
Lakobie: for Damara maybe she saw the signs of Rufioh slipping away from her for Horuss and didnt do anything about it thinking things would be okay in the end
blastyoboots: very well said, all! I’d like to clarify a few though:
blastyoboots: > “Mages and Seers tend to lose focus on the big picture, instead focusing on minute details without first reasearching the proper information and examining all options”
blastyoboots: I’d instead say, Mages and Seers tend to get so embroiled in an understanding of their own aspect that they neglect to appreciate or realize the implications of its dichotomic opposite
Lakobie: hm
blastyoboots: one fully invested in Light, like Doc Scratch, would lose appreciation for the gaps the Void can create in his senses, and not understand them coming
blastyoboots: someone like Terezi can puzzle out the exact thought process that would split Dave and get him to intuitively understand why he couldn’t ascend, but she neglected to see the Heart-like consequences, the breach of trust and the rift it would create between her and him
blastyoboots: with the Quest Bed coin flip thing
Lakobie: ah
Lakobie: im still trying to figure out Witch/Heir and Prince/Bard
Lakobie: Prince Bard shoudl be easy but for some reason its eluding me
blastyoboots: when Jade grew out of it and went to active participation, she was also un-inverting, if you recall my Jade the Seer post; aside from that, I’d agree that Feferi faillng to realize her very active role was definitely a contributor to her demise, as she was definitely acting passive
Lakobie: yes of course
blastyoboots: anyway I’m posting this
blastyoboots: not sure about everything you said, but the Knights and Pages thing was shockingly spot on and enlightening
Anyway, it turns out she was just nervous. Super fucking nervous, and maybe rather ignorant about the strength of her drinks.
[10/24/12 9:10:28 PM] TheFinalWraith: Someone had a good analogy for this update
[10/24/12 9:10:37 PM] blastyoboots: give me
[10/24/12 9:10:42 PM] blastyoboots: i need ways to interpret it
[10/24/12 9:10:51 PM] TheFinalWraith: “Rose ran face-first into her own ship and didn’t even dent the hull.”
Keep in mind: the confirmed idea that Rose is a lesbian, here, makes the relationship arguably impossible to avoid as an ending scenario. There will be conflict and at least one major, dramatic obstacle, sure, but it’s pretty clear to see that they’ll both be either dead or together in the end.
But the nature of that conflict is set to be interesting? Especially since Rose is apparently, unexpectedly, as nervous and likely to let things fall apart as Kanaya seemed to be before.
[10/24/12 9:15:51 PM] TheFinalWraith: Also kind of weird that they’re only going on their first date on year 2
[10/24/12 9:16:02 PM] TheFinalWraith: How insecure can you even be?
[10/24/12 9:16:38 PM] blastyoboots: the answer is apparently Rose
(It’ll be nice and healthy to see Kanaya being the assertive one for a change, at least. And again, there’s that reproduction mention I made that could still be brought up in a different context.)
Okay wow, I was going to make this post more speccy but I ended up just throwing around ultimatum-like assertions?!?? What the hell, me. I’m actually in “cnat-ytpe mrosde” due to burnout from caffeine imbibed earlier in the day, right now, but I was hhoping to hold it back enough for a constructive post with extreme effort. Guess I can’t quite get my brain to work even if I can force my fingers to. 'night guys
EDIT: Oh, and thodust, I wanted to say that I actually shouldn’t have disagreed with you so hard, and I’ll give you a proper reply later in the week when I have more lucid time to write. :)
EDIT2: And I forgot to mention that I somewhat expect Rose to break out bawling next panels?
so am I the only one who feels like certain of Vriska's relationships are getting "cashed out" intentionally here? she flat out tells John that her fling with his beta-self didn't work, and Terezi's evidently found herself a new rival. I might just be reading tea leaves here, but it feels like she's having her ties to other characters cut as a preparation for something. Double-dying or staying mon-dead. A real bummer of a situation, if you ask me.
If it were to look like anyone’s quadrants were still likely Vriska, or had no choices other than Vriska, we wouldn’t see her double-death as so likely, now, would we? Don’t you recall when all Kanaya’s plot armor was seemingly “cashed out” with her talk with Jade and the matriorb quest, right before she died?
Andrew is very good at seeing the tenuous character- and romantic-arc ties that keep individuals from seeming narratively assailable deathways, and sabotaging their appearance when necessary. Or at least, he certainly was in a pinch, with Kanaya’s. Setting things up for Vriska over such a long time period is easy in comparison.
I’m not saying I’m right, but you should keep this view in mind. Especially with the unfathomable destruction prophecy to worry about.
It seems I was right about Terezi and Gamzee being temporary. Also, keep your eyes peeled on the Rose/Kanaya front, since there’s still room for a conflict, break, and reconciliation… yes, even though almost all the tension in the relationship has just been cashed in adorably. One of the two could be put in danger of dying, perhaps? (Hopefully, those stairs are just there for the Cinderella shoe reference (EDIT: And to get Rose in the same body position as Jake), and they aren’t actually about to fall down or get pushed by Gamzee. If Rose got killed, revived, and forgot about the kiss, Kanaya would take it pretty hard.)
It’s possible, but not absolutely guaranteed. Romantic arcs are driven by the tension of fragility, uncertainty, distance, and competition, most of which Rose just managed to slay while drunk off her ass.
There is one important side implication of all this, though. By expressing interest in using the ashen quadrant - plus, using a cheesy “I can teach you the quadrants” line reminiscent of Eridan - Rose might be foreshadowing her corner of the Quadrant Sprite theory!
Okay, so… thefinalwraith and I were shooting the breeze over Rose/Kanaya, and how I mentioned that the tension could be very well resolved, a romantic break not necessarily important:
blastyoboots: one of the major remaining possibilities that would have potentially brought conflict into the relationship, before all this happened, was Rose’s haughty impenetrability
blastyoboots: the idea that she might take a dominant position in the relationship, that Kanaya would basically roll over for her
blastyoboots: and that wouldn’t be very good for Kanaya’s development
blastyoboots: but, yeah
blastyoboots: Rose ending up being anxious enough about their first date to get absolutely hammered, without even mentioning to Kanaya that it was a date
blastyoboots: blew that out of the water to an extent :)
TheFinalWraith: Although a case could be made that Kanaya’s ’maternal’ qualities might be a factor in why Rose is attracted to her
blastyoboots: uhh
blastyoboots: where are you going with this
blastyoboots: hehehe
TheFinalWraith: Which could lead to Dave staring at her smugly
And then uh…
blastyoboots: oh shit
blastyoboots: what if that’s the break
…….…..
So er, the idea is that…. Rose/Kanaya could very well still have a dramatic break, and then reconcile? However, that break would need and impetus. And…
I mean, look at this pattern.
And…
So, think about this for a second…
TT: In some cultures the persistent refusal of a lady’s invitation to play a game with her would be a sign wanton disrespect. TT: Either that, or flagrant homosexuality.
What are the two contrived ideas that Rose constantly uses to tease Dave and his coolkid persona?
Since you have a much better grasp on Homestuck than I do, could I ask you for some help with the Light aspect? Specifically the "luck" part. Information, clarification, "shedding light" on things - associating that part with Light I understand - but what does any of that have to do with luck? Why is Vriska so preoccupied with that part of the aspect, and what does her arc have to do with thievery with/of information? And, does Void have any sort of inverse counterpart to Light's fortune?
When it came out, plenty of people - especially in the theory threads - objected that it was a mechanics violation. "But server players can’t touch anything that would move the client players!“ And this was indeed true in the past.
Andrew gave a literal "it’s within the bounds of the rules” response on his formspring:
How was Vriska able to interact with Tavros’ FOUR WHEEL DEVICE if direct server player interaction with client players or anything directly touching them is prohibited in the kids’ session?
It isn’t entirely prohibited. If you look at the page where Rose was trying to move the bed John was lying on, the bed is jostling a bit, and so is John.
And that may very well be the only explanation. However, sometimes things that occur in Homestuck have dual meanings.
Look carefully at the context in which we learned that rule:
EB: why don’t you just like, EB: carry the bed around with me on it? EB: up to the gate up there! TT: I can’t interact with you directly, or anything that you are touching, if it will result in moving you. TT: See? EB: oh. EB: lame! TT: The game probably regards that as a kind of cheating. TT: In a way, thieving you of your free will as an adventurer, and the need to advance by your own skill and ingenuity. TT: The server player is just a facilitator.
And now, you can tell exactly why Vriska would be able to do it anyway.
Light represents not just fortune and information, but also agency! And Vriska is a Thief of Light who cheats and robs people of their free will.
EDIT: No, I’m not saying Andrew had a Thief of Light planned out back in Act 2. I’m saying that he just so happened to introduce a Thief of Light who cheats and steals free will (even psychically), later in the story, and then remembered this conveniently exact phrasing he’d used. From there, it was only thematically appropriate to include her doing this. :)
You say mental clarity is the most important thing a sylph can heal. But Aranea can’t heal Mituna. The healing power of sylphs as shown in the comic is that Aranea can heal blindness, blindness, and only blindness. Because she’s letting other people see the light, or *sharing* her aspect with them. Sylphs being healers is a much more narrow role than the other classes. Aranea’s biggest character trait is sharing information, and Kanaya’s never healed anyone.
AG: My perspective is informed 8y my class and aspect. It was to my advantage as a healer to see things a little differently. To find equanimity across many different outcomes. GC: OH? AG: There’s more to the realization of our roles than gaining flashy powers. AG: And there’s more to healing than repairing 8attle damage. AG: You killed a friend and you understanda8ly feel regret. AG: 8ut it’s done. She is gone and you are still here. AG: Now what? GC: …
Taking such a narrow view on things is missing a large point in Homestuck:
AG: You could look for a8solution through rationalization. Everyone would have died if you didn’t take action, so why trou8le yourself with guilty emotion? AG: 8ut there is no real healing power in 8elieving that. And I don’t think it’s what you wanted to tell yourself anyway, is it? GC: NOT R34LLY AG: Or what a8out through renunciation of responsi8ility? If you were just a tool used 8y reality to perpetuate itself, where is the 8lame? AG: 8ut that would 8e another empty idea that has no power to heal.
AG: Violence was respected and cele8rated on your world, 8ut remorse was rarely felt and pain could never heal due to such empty justifications. We died out a wounded race, and you are all that’s left. AG: The process of healing first involves sifting through what it isn’t, which happens to 8e almost everything your trou8led mind has to offer.
That the Doom-based sacrifice Mituna made, the heavy brain damage that resulted, can’t be healed under Light’s purview does not make a Sylph of Light a useless eye-healer. Aspects are NOT just literal flashy powers, and the player roles which channel them aren’t just a set of spells like a League of Legends hero loadout. They also have to deal with the segments of personalities, people’s inclinations, their mental states, their willingness to act and the bonds they share.
In fact, these glitzless, personal role traits are not just important side-qualities of the powers one is given. In the context of causing changes in the course of reality, they are arguably the most important!
Kanaya certainly did heal through Space. What do you think she was doing when she took a notoriously imprecise Sgrub cursor:
EB: rose my piano!!! EB: :C TT: Sorry. TT: No nuance to these controls at all. TT: I was hoping to bludgeon the imp without letting go of it. Guess I can’t really do that.
GA: These Events Are Inevitable And Regardless Of Whatever Emotional Entanglements Obfuscate Their Significance They Will Ultimately Serve An Important Purpose GA: The Curse Had Nothing To Do With It GA: And Karkats Notion Of A Curse Is Inseparable From His Perception Of Events As Intrinsically Negative And As Tailored To His Personal Dissatisfaction GA: And Your Bad Luck Is The Same Way GA: I Believe Anyway AG: Uh. Ok. GA: What Would Happen If You Just Cleaned Up A Bit GA: Dont You Think You Would Step On A Few Less Hard Triangles
Or as another, even more literal example, what about THIS:
HMMMMM???? :)
Cleaning, redecorating spaces with fabric and furniture, people with dresses… does that not count as a form of healing Space? And cleaving through someone with a chainsaw so they can have new legs installed, is that not a form of healing through Space?
GA: I Thought Id Be Friendly Though GA: And Remind You That You Do In Fact Have A Hand In All The Terrible Things That Are About To Happen GA: Because Thats What Friends Are For GA: And The Fact That What Ensues Will Be Terrible GA: Is An Immutable Fact I Am Stating For The Record GA: And The Fact That We Will Not Be On The Same Team Is Similarly Immutable GA: It Does Not Mean That Teamwork Is What Isnt Taking Place Here AA: s0rry i didnt f0ll0w that GA: Ill Be Here To Help GA: If You Need Me AA: 0k AA: thanks
Kanaya helps others, mentally and physically. It’s what she’s driven to do and part of how she identifies herself, even down to her screenname, grimAuxiliatrix. When friends like Karkat or Vriska had misconceptions about the status quo, she stepped in to provide an alternative explanation, to state that things are going to be how they always were, to ease their minds. And when friends like Aradia used that fact as an excuse to flee from culpability and cause destruction, she offered advice in the opposite direction, seeking for people to secure their mental health through an understanding of the reasons for that which IS.
And we need not explain her constant affairs in the ashen quadrant:
ROSE: This could create a schisasm in our group, that we could all be torn apart. ROSE: And I don’t wand that!!!!! ROSE: I want us all to stay friends, and jus be… peaceful togehter. :( KANAYA: Me Too
KANAYA: Where Two Parties Are Highly Drawn To Each Other Through Animosity KANAYA: They May In Fact Be Perfect For Each Other In That Tumultuous Quadrant KANAYA: But To Pursue The Relationship Would Be Chaos KANAYA: Much Like The Scenario You Laid Out The Two Kismeses If Left Unchecked Would Devastate All Their Other Relationships KANAYA: Those In Their Own Quadrants And Even Those In Other Peoples KANAYA: So It Is The Job Of An Auspistice To Make Sure That Doesnt Happen
Which puts space between two individuals to quench their contention for everyone’s benefit!
Kanaya has fit snugly into her role as a Sylph of Space all along.
I've been involved in some conversation regarding the possibility that Hussie's foreshadowing Jake getting possessed/manipulated by Lord English, possibly involving a severe Aspect inversion. A friend of mine brought up that Roxy referred to Jake's helmet as a "shitty brainwashing helmet," despite the fact that Roxy has no real reason to be suspicious of Skaianet tech, seeing as it's specifically designed to freak out the Condesce. How likely/dangerous do you suspect such an event would be?
Anonymous
Not that way, no.
But do keep in mind that we don’t know the method Lord English uses for immortality. In fact, the one example we have from him is the curse he put on the Handmaid that was transferrable upon her death.
So - and I’ve mentioned this possibility before - it’s quite possible that if Jake defeats Lord English, Lord English would subsequently hijack his body.
uu: HE MAKES NO BONES ABOuT GANKING MY LOOK. uu: IT’S PATHETIC. uu: YOu DON’T JuST GO AND JACK A MAN’S SWAGGER. uu: THAT’S THE CARDINAL FuCKING RuLE OF BROS. RIGHT?
Hi, could you help me understand why your Mage is active? All this time I've been seeing "Mages being manipulated/mind controlled by more active classes in ways at least tangentially related to their aspect, and then sometimes doing some sort of heroic sacrifice" and thinking "oh, passive". What am I missing? I'm not really happy with my current passive/active pairs so it would help me if Mage WAS active, but I'm just not seeing what you're seeing.
Anonymous
The key is to contrast them to a Seer, the other class with “Understand” as its operative verb.
A Seer gains comprehensive knowledge of their aspect, but then acts through others on the information. They advise on courses of action, prompt or trick allies and enemies alike into leading reality toward different outcomes, et cetera. Andrew has remarked before that Seers are passive.
In contrast, a Mage is meant to understand their aspect, and largely use that understanding themselves. Sollux had the map of Doom laid out in front of him, and his true role was not quite to warn others of its outcomes - as he found when others ignored his disastrous, pessimistic portents - but to carve their way across them with his own power. To expend his life force and use sacrifice to blast reality into a desired shape, rather than inviting others to do so or avoid doing so.
The reason Sollux seemed like such a pushover, compelled this way and that by his friends and enemies, was due to his aspect. Doom instills pessimism and apathy, and an individual in such condition is especially vulnerable to the whims and wills of others. For most of their game and afterwards, Sollux didn’t really learn how to overcome and take the reins of Doom.
With a sewing machine strongly resembling (If it isn’t exactly like) one that sewed the universe together.
I think Kanaya is going to fix reality once Lord English is defeated.
Quoted for truth!
The whole “Healer of Space” thing I understood, as well as the PI connection, but I definitely forgot the ‘sewing’ thing! I’d been imagining Calliope as holding the broader responsibility there despite Kanaya’s hero role, but with sewing, this indeed makes much more sense.
Heart, the aspect of Self and Soul, is the aspect of Meulin (our other Mage). She’s ALSO kind of a pushover. Everyone BUT her benefits from her matchmaking. She is mind-controlled, allowing her soul to benefit Kurloz. Thoughts?
Under my role scheme, she would be one who understands Heart and understands through Heart. She understands people’s souls and the paths they weave, and would be meant to use that information herself. So, does she fit that description?
Well, if you look at the context in which she offers matchmaking, her ship-facilitation seems to be rather self-motivated. She actively works to make ships happen when she wants them to, in other words. Furthermore, she uses her understanding to dictate Soul-based directives to others: You see this with Horuss in particular, who she persuaded to retain a disturbing smile at all hours regardless of how he felt.
But as to her being manipulated, or the fact that she’s experienced plenty of personal relationship failure herself? Well, that has to deal with a challenge frequently experienced by those of the Understanding classes, especially the ones who embrace their aspects like Terezi.
You see, your role might grant you a great understanding of, say, Heart or Mind, to a degree that you can redirect others to dance as you would will. However, just because you understand them doesn’t mean that you understand yourself! Getting others to dance works swimmingly… but when you try to make others dance with you? The consequences can often elude you.
Furthermore, Understanding classes have another blind spot in their opposing aspect. One’s comprehensive knowledge of Mind might lead one to think they have all the consequences in sight, the possibilities and reasoning covered in a situation… however, in leveraging Mind to get Dave to see on a deep logical level why he wasn’t going to reach God-Tier, Terezi neglected to notice the consequences it had for Heart, the trust she was violating, the romantic break created, the tears she would soon shed over a reality she precisely and intentionally engineered. And with Vriska, she tried to puzzle her doubts about going through with things out logically, neglecting to accept and realize - with Gamzee further inviting her blindness to the possibilities (through Rage) - that she could indeed feel black attraction to a criminal like Vriska, that it was what was biasing her actions in lieu of logic, and that if she had a choice, she’d find a way to stop Vriska that didn’t involve her death. Even earlier, during their session, she failed to see that teasing Karkat with constant schemes led him to think there was an angle to everything she said, keeping her at arms length and not quite trusting her, leading to her later frustration that he simply wasn’t approaching her romantically. All oversights in Heart.
In other words, Meulin likely fell under any number of mental traps associated with those who still have things to learn as heroes. I’d be surprised if it was anything but; the pre-Scratch trolls largely didn’t become fully realized as their roles, after all.
Finally, I wanted to mention that ‘being manipulated’ isn’t a quirk specific to passive classes at all. Passive classes “invite” others to do things, and help others… in that, they’re susceptible both to being “invited” in that exact same way themselves (the Heir of Breath, who invites change in direction, eagerly pursuing any alternative direction others offer him), and to anything as simple as requests for help by others. Active classes can be manipulated by convincing them that they want something, at which point they’ll jump at the task and apply their power. Like Aradia, persuaded by apathy and instruction to doom timelines en masse and advance the horrorterrors’ will, or even in the case of Sollux, another Mage convinced to leverage his Understanding:
GC: 1M G1V1NG 4LL TH3S3 COD3S TO OUR H4CK3R GUY EB: oh man, you have a hacker?? EB: i bet he is THE BEST!!!! EB: hackers are always the best. GC: H4H4H4H4H4 GC: W3LL H3 SUR3 TH1NKS H3 1S EB: who is it? EB: have i talked to him? GC: NO H3 S4YS H3 DO3SNT W4NT TO T4LK TO 4NY OF YOU 3V3R GC: B3C4US3 H3 H4T3S YOU GC: BUT H3 W1LL DO TH1S GC: B3C4US3 H3 WONT B3 4BL3 TO R3S1ST TH3 CH4LL3NG3
Calliope already implied that role inversion could take place between Doom and Life, for example. (An inversion we may very well see eventually.) It may not be called ‘grimdark’ specifically, but depending on the situation you could definitely call it analogous.
In fact, though I doubted it before, there was probably a little bit of ghosting and inversion on Aradia’s part, too, when she was a (heh) ghost. Do note that according to my role layout, Aradia’s inversion as a Maid of Time (Create Time and Create through Time) would be a Bard of Space (invite destruction of Space and destruction through Space).
…you have recovered MYSTERIOUS TECHNOLOGY from the ruins, and convinced a friend to adapt it into a GAME THAT WILL BRING ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR CIVILIZATION. And by convinced, you suppose you mean tricked.
AA: this game will n0t save the w0rld TA: the fuck?? AA: and th0ugh it is still very imp0rtant even in 0ur defeat AA: unf0rtantely it is much cl0ser t0 serving as the instrument 0f 0ur pe0ples demise than that 0f their salvati0n AA: and we twelve will behave simultane0usly as the pawns and the 0rchestrat0rs of the great und0ing
PCG: ROBOTS FROM THE FUTURE ALWAYS COMING BACK TO TELL ME HOW SOME HASTY SHIT I DID WITH FROG BREEDING OR WHATEVER WOULD MAKE IT BE IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN. PCG: MY OWN PERSONAL MISTAKES PROBABLY ACCOUNTED FOR MORE DOOMED ARADIABOTS THAN ANYTHING ELSE.
Where she micromanaged the frog breeding to achieve a very specific, genetically disastrous result.
so it looks like your shoe color theory got jossed…
Or at least, uh, not entirely. (And it’s not my theory, I just subscribed to it!) But let’s break it down a little.
For Time, we have a Maid (active) and a Witch (active).
Both black.
Light we already knew, Thief (active) is red while Seer (passive) and Sylph (passive) are blue.
Hope gives us a Bard (passive) and a Prince (active).
Note that these are both purple, but different shades! Cronus has #7E197D, and Eridan has a measurably darker #69006A (very close to his text color, #6A006A).
Life has a Witch (active) and a Thief (active).
Both the exact same color, #8E0B4E.
Breath has the Heir (passive), Page (passive), and Rogue (passive).
All these are the same, #FCFF3C. (Tavros’s is different but negligibly enough to be within the margin of error, #FCF039. Close enough that it was more likely a mistake than anything else.)
Space gave us a Maid (active) to add to our existing Witch, Jade (active):
And her shoes are red.
So, all of this so far lines up with the theory: Each aspect has two shoe colors, one for active and one for passive.
But there are a pair of conflicts.
The theory demands that Blood have two different shoe colors for its Knight (active) and Seer (passive):
And both of them are #352F2F!
The other example is Rage, a Prince (active) and Bard (passive):
The MINISTRIFE (which was going to drop on 10/31 but oh well) is chock full of sprite characters made by Feastings. Most of them were done a while ago and started floating around the tumblrverse as a little fandom craze, so I asked her to make a few more and now POOF they’re all magically canon. Thank you Feastings.
And when it comes down to it, Andrew may not have gone through the trouble of using an eyedropper to micromanage the shoe colors for all these god-tier sprites, especially when we are literally talking about a handful of pixels. In other words, we still don’t know!
There are literally zero alternative theories that fit the colors (excluding anomalies), despite the “they don’t matter”/“arbitrary” option. The only other one I’ve seen proposed is “two classes with the same shoe color are an active/passive pair”, but that would only be true if:
Knight/Maid is an active/passive pair. (Plausible!)
Heir/Page is an active/passive pair. (Also plausible?)
Sylph/Seer is an active/passive pair. (Wait what no)
None of the introduced god-tier shoe colors in this update besides Kurloz’s were accurate.
So as you can see, that doesn’t work.
Should you still buy the god-tier “active-color passive-color per-aspect” shoe theory? Tentatively, I do. I guess you have to use your own judgment.
yo feastings basically said hussie gave her no like,, what the godtiers should look like> ?? so yeah the shoes arent acurate in the newbies you nailed it perfect theory is stll perfect.,, ,
Anonymous
Andrew’s taken art from others before, though, and colored it up or edited it to match canon or the situation he desired.
We can’t be entirely certain why he didn’t deem the shoe colors necessary of attention. Is it because they’re arbitrary? Did he not notice? Was it not worth the trouble of delving in and cross-referencing between fifty sprites to figure out how to change a literal handful of pixels? Or perhaps he had the “they’re just swappable clothes” explanation already in mind, and intentionally left us without a clear pattern so we couldn’t be “absolutely sure” and canonically confirm the layout of the entire class list early?
I’m still betting on the shoe color theory that once-ler-direction pointed out, the same one I used to complete my class table. However: when your theory’s continued veracity relies on the author being lazy or inattentive, you can’t just blithely assume it’s “perfect”. You’re on dangerous ground!
I'm fairly sure it was mentioned at one point that LE can only be defeated through a series of glitches in the game -- so what do you think the chances are that Bec Noir, who is, according to Doc Scratch, not a known factor like LE himself, will be instrumental in his eventual defeat? Or, more importantly, how do you think he'll factor in?
I’m honestly not sure how Bec Noir and PM are going to factor in, when they finally enter the session.
But anyway, here was the exact description of Lord English’s rumored weakness:
Still, it might come in handy down the road. Lord English is supposedly indestructible. He’s rumored to be killable only through a number of glitches and exploits in spacetime. The doll may ultimately help you work the system if it comes to that.
So, glitches and exploits in space-time.
Incidentally, who among our heroes exploits Time? ;)
Also keep in mind that Feastings, the one who made the sprites, colored them herself with no apparent color-input from Hussie, and as far as they can tell Andrew made zero changes to them before including them in the flash. Andrew said that if he introduces the full-size outfits differently later in the story, he intends to go back and retcon the sprites to fit, since they’re made of handfuls of pixels each. So, nothing in the flash is necessarily finalized.
These are our alternatives, essentially:
There are two shoe colors per aspect, one for active classes and one for passive classes. Andrew didn’t bother with said discrepancies in the flash - perhaps out of “meh, I need to edit them later anyway”, or perhaps because it would clue us into a whole lot more about classes we aren’t necessarily meant to know for sure, yet - and we can expect that if/when the theory or class layout is explicitly confirmed in canon, the sprites will be retconned to match.
Vriska somehow changed the color of her boots immediately upon ascension (like Meenah rearranged her outfit), or her boots simply matched her preexisting preferences according to her will.
I take issue with the last one, for some reasons which have already been mentioned to the guy:
ashdenej: […] Although I find it a bit dubious that Vriska could change her shoes so quickly after ascension - especially since we know that Meenah could swap her clothes out so quickly because she was in a dream-bubble (we’ve seen that before), but that there are no such implications about the real world / incipisphere.
Players in dream bubbles can rearrange their appearances to match any array of past memories, so it’s not out of the question that they could instantly rearrange their existing outfits into new ones that are slightly different.
Furthermore, not only was Vriska’s love of red shoes explicitly told to us beforehand in a way that seemingly foreshadowed their inclusion in her future outfit, but also, keep in mind that she was the second God-Tier player we ever saw! He specifically chose to make Rose’s shoes different later, and then Aranea’s match Rose’s - and others match those of God-Tiers in the same aspect - when he could have just had them all line up from the start. Why would one of our first God-Tier sightings be a pattern breaker for such an obscure and arbitrary reason?
But then again, it could be one more of those small effects meant to later be seen as a signal that it was a coincidence brought into reality out of someone’s will, hinting at the Ultimate Riddle or such.
So there are your two options? I’m still sticking with active/passive shoes, for now, but it’s your call.
I am so fucking tired of seeing all the early foreshadowing I was too stupid and loving the trolls to even think about noticing omfg
Ah, what a nice bit of foreshadowing to combine it all together! Gamzee’s relationship, regardless of extent, to Caliborn, added to the fact that it’s a Rose’s-house-style Wizard statue shadow to represent Lord English’s association with magic.
Speaking with a friend, I realized that some of the meaningful, karma-like ‘trials’ the trolls had to overcome in and around the Horrorstuck stretch of Act 5 Act 2 were a bit more specific than I’d thought!
blastyoboots: the destruction of information is specifically Void
blastyoboots: oh, and do recall the Page of Void
blastyoboots: who built himself out of absolute bullshit
blastyoboots: “I AM A HORSE”
Mako: I actually still haven’t read through all his stuff
Mako: Well
Mako: He’s a Page
Mako: That complicates things
Mako: He also wasn’t a very *good* Page
Mako: Which complicates them further
blastyoboots: he actually was a rather accomplished Page compared to our other pages
blastyoboots: the issue is that he failed to overcome his aspect
blastyoboots: instead succumbing to it, and therefore being subject by it to irrelevance
blastyoboots: in fact….
blastyoboots: oh shit
blastyoboots: Equius, Nepeta, Vriska
blastyoboots: …and Tavros!!
Mako: …became overcome by the void?
blastyoboots: all four of them succumbed to their respective aspects instead of overcoming and commanding them
blastyoboots: and died
blastyoboots: Equius: succumbing to the ideal of submission (Void), refusing to overcome it for the sake of his team / the advancement of reality
blastyoboots: Nepeta: succumbing to her Heart-sourced curiosity, completely ignoring the logical thing to do and leaving her absolutely secure hiding place for no reason other than whim
blastyoboots: Tavros: choosing an impossible goal/direction, regardless of how unwise it was, and pursuing it without seeking the slightest bit of help (Blood) with wild abandon
blastyoboots: Vriska: hoarding Luck and Light to the point that she denied even the slightest sway of coincidence in her team’s favor over her desires, effectively committing them to however doomed her own preferences were, and thus being killed so they could regain the freedom to live
Mako: I can see how Rose and Dave came very close to this kind of trap
Mako: In fact
Mako: Rose lost a life to her indulgence in poor sources of information
blastyoboots: Terezi didn’t overcome her Mind when she ended up scheming and killing Dave
blastyoboots: well, Rose’s issue was in the opposite direction
blastyoboots: (so far, at least)
blastyoboots: tempted by Void and shunning Light out of discouragement
Mako: She *was* in pursuit of information the whole time.
Mako: But she didn’t notice she was destroying information to get to other information.
blastyoboots: and she was only getting the information she thought she wanted
blastyoboots: which precluded her getting the information she needed
blastyoboots: Light involves accepting those sources
Mako: Hmmm
Mako: I tentatively suggested somewhere that you could say your aspect causes your problems, and your class is your approach to solving them
Mako: I didn’t actually realize how thoroughly the story was demonstrating that
Remind me to write a post on this later. Oh, and to edit that section in the Ultimate Riddle theorypost once I do. :)
Some characters have faced serious mistakes where they failed to overcome their aspect (Terezi, Equius et al), causing harm to others / their desires or their own deaths. Some have faced the opposite problem, rebelling against their aspect; or in the unique case of a Prince and potentially other destroyer classes, embracing their destructive role without first learning to appreciate the aspect they’re destroying.
And some, like John, haven’t really faced either, yet! John is still in the happy medium where he’s been exercising his role with wild abandon and to no ill effect, any rebellion short and sweet and the few consequences of his flighty, questy, frivolous Breath-ness mercifully corrected by circumstance or others. (Or in the doomed timeline, even a Denizen choice he made himself, sssortof. The timeline was doomed by Cal’s prototyping, not by him seeking out the denizen; his quest for the denizen ended up fortunate.) In other words, his character-defining trial is yet to come.
John is actually very, very good at his role, though he doesn’t realize its importance. I’ll go into this in the Breath and Blood spiel eventually.
You said that Jade started acting like a seer of space when she finished her alchemy binge, are there any other partial inversions?
Anonymous
No no, I don’t really believe it was a ‘partial’ inversion to a Seer of Space, here, nor that said partial inversions are even a thing in general.
It was more like this: Jade was still inclined to participate in her old Seer of Time habits, using the vectors of knowledge available to her to gather information and understanding to direct her friends. However, absent the clouds, the only vector of info she got her hands on was a present-time sighting device.
And when she attempted to look at Time (Dave/Davesprite), she saw things she didn’t like!
Also, note how unclear and fumbling she is with her new source of information, as opposed to her previous Seer of Timeyness with her dreamself:
GG: dave!!!!!! GG: any dave out there please listen! TG: this is a dave out there whats up GG: dave i just saw you, and you were dead! GG: you were in a green suit and covered in blood, oh god it was terrible :( GG: if that was a future dave you have to make sure that doesnt happen!!! TG: it wasnt a future dave he was from a while ago GG: oh GG: i am confused :o TG: sorry you had to see that TG: but dont worry it was just a doomed dave no big deal really TG: i was swindled into splitting time paths along the way and that guy got the dead end of the stick TG: ill be fine GG: ok… GG: i am still not sure i get that! GG: but i guess i am relieved? TG: yes you are go ahead and be relieved GG: wheeeew! there i just was TG: nice
The closest you’re ever going to get to what you’re calling a 'partial inversion’, perhaps, is when a passive player does active things or makes some very active choices, or vice versa (active->passive). But that’s normal!
As a passive player’s role is often to invite in others, they find themselves incredibly susceptible to being invited themselves. For example, Kanaya, whose role is to invite creation/repair of and through Space, finds herself easily badgered into creating a dress or a wand for others, even though it’s something she doesn’t necessarily want to do herself! (And let’s not go into the almighty John and his propensity to change Direction wherever others tell him.) But a passive player can’t rely on acting through everyone else all the time, must not permanently remain a sort of doormat, even without inversion: Such a player has to learn when to toss aside what others think and take forcible command of a situation.
I’m honestly really concerned about Jade right now.
The kids’ cruxite artifacts give us a look at their character arcs (which is why I was so annoyed that we haven’t seen Dirk or Roxy’s yet). John, for example, had an apple signifying a loss of innocence, which we just saw in this Intermission in a big way. Jade was blindfolded and forced to shoot an image of Bec, her best friend and supernatural aid.
Throughout the comic to that point, Jade was the ‘seer’ type figure, who knew what was going to happen and had it all figured out. Her entry object told her ‘you can’t see everything. You’re not always all-powerful’.
Most arcs have a point where they hit rock bottom. Jade hasn’t had that yet. She rescued John in Descend. She saved the day in Cascade. She even smoothed over the Dave incident by reviving him. So far, she has not experienced utter failure. But if I’m reading her arc correctly, at some point she is going to have to face the truth that she cannot save everyone.
There probably will very well be future trials for her, even disastrous ones. However, she already has somewhat fulfilled her cruxite item’s prophecy: She willingly sacrificed her dangerous friend for the power to save the others, eventually earning ascension because of it!
It might repeat itself in a more difficult manner with Jake if some crazy LE possession things happen, though. I dunno.
Gamzee being the most important character in Homestuck.
Meenah saying Mituna was “probably the least important guy ever” (which is basically Homestuck code for ‘THIS IS IMPORTANT’)
Jade was the one responsible for making sure everyone survived the Scratch.
FUCKING AUTO-RESPONDER THOUGH OH GOD FUCK NO THE POST-SCRATCH SESSION IS SCREWED IF IT’S HIM.
Hey Alex check it out someone else figured it out
Well, with regards to the Auto-Responder, keep in mind that he’s destined to become Doc Scratch. And there was another post I could have sworn I reblogged theorizing about the lies he’s made and lies to come, possible deception about leading Jane on a false trail to her Dad to kill her, or other schemes… but I can’t find it, even with google. Anyone see it on my blog anywhere?
Speaking of which, I found some extra evidence in addition to what I just linked, on this page:
Yes, but causing the Scratch is not an easy task either. The construct must be destroyed in a very specific way to release its energy. The keeper of my ectobiological father began the process. It must be finished. TT: Who? The guardian of the Knight of Time. TT: Dave’s bro? Yes.
Even though Doc is referring to Bro as the keeper of Lil’ Cal… could this not also be referring to Dirk, the keeper of Lil’ Hal?
After her alchemy binge and a couple awful conversations with trolls, Jade sets out to contribute to her teammates’ efforts by developing her own ability as a Witch of Space. Not knowing what exactly that entails, her first instinct is to go around viewing her teammates’ physical locations.
This isn’t Witch behavior at all! She’s acting too much like a Seer, meaning she hasn’t yet recovered from her class inversion. So as unofficial Seer of Time (note the red goggles!) what does she actually end up looking at?
Dead people.
Which brings us to the question of why she inverted in the first place. We’ve always known about Dave’s collection of preserved dead things, and later Aradia explicitly pointed out that dealing with the Time aspect means confronting death:
AA: alpha dave still has a long way to go AA: hes still not at ease with his mortality AA: but people like us have to be!
And what had Jade already told John about her own mortality, hundreds of pages earlier?
GG: its nothing that secret or personal or anything…. GG: it is just something kind of sad and weird for you to see EB: what is it? GG: it is my dead dream self GG: it has been there for years, i always knew i would die but i did not realize it would go like this….
And don’t forget, she was punished specifically when she tried to See Dave, the Time player!
The definition of an Heir’s role is not to ‘become’ his aspect! :)
One who invites change in X, or invites change through X.
As an Heir of Breath, John’s role is to invite change of Direction/Quest in others. At the same time, as someone who invites change in/through Breath, he is quite susceptible to being invited to change in Breath himself, by others or by the whims of Breath itself. Effectively, this combines to make him a nexus via which Breath changes.
(I’m driving out on a business trip tomorrow night, spending Monday and Tuesday out of town; I’ll have my laptop and a hotel room Monday afternoon, with plenty of time to hammer out the Breath/Blood post explaining this in detail. After flipping out over the 11/11 update, of course.)
The Void aspect governs nothingness/lack/darkness, misinformation, mystery, obfuscation, misfortune, destruction, and submission. We especially observe the latter in Equius, as he invites changes in submission in others:
CT: D –> I forbid this CT: D –> You will take your position on the b100 team with me
CT: D –> I am telling you not to CT: D –> And you will be on my team CT: D –> That’s final
CT: D –> You will do as I say
CT: D –> You will stop TC: WhOaAaA, i WiLl? TC: hOw Do YoU kNoW tHaT? CT: D –> No, you don’t understand CT: D –> It’s not a predi%ion, it’s an order CT: D –> I command you to stop
And is invited to changes in submission himself:
CT: D –> You will be the leader of me, and I will lead all else CT: D –> You would in effect be the secret leader AA: yeah sure AA: thats pretty much h0w it is anyway CT: D –> Yes, that’s the spirit CT: D –> You take to authority well for one of your b100d AA: i d0nt have bl00d
But anyway, let’s see. If you wanted to extend that to flashy powers…
Things already fall apart in his grasp, but this would occur to an even more dramatic degree. The established and structured could find themselves crumbling around him.
Others in his vicinity may find themselves concealed and shrouded. Invisible, even, if so invited. Perhaps, himself, he’d even vanish at an opponent’s touch, like John and Breath. And, um….
Alright, I don’t quite know. It’s indeed a touch difficult to figure all this out. But you can easily imagine how impressive it would be, at least.
If you had to guess, what would you put as Doc Scratch's title?
Anonymous
Doc Scratch has no title:
TT: Which sort of death will you have when I destroy the sun? Neither. I’m not a god. I’m a guardian, a servant, and a weapon. I have power and knowledge far surpassing a god. But I am not one.
As to how he operates with reality… you could technically say that his soul and inclination is based off of a Prince of Heart, and that he’s granted the epitome of physical Space powers through becoming a First Guardian in various universes.
But how can Doc Scratch be the AR when we already saw how Scratch was created? (The Meow Code, Magic Cue Ball, Lil’ Cal)
That was only one of his iterations! Doc Scratch has spawned in countless universes, and the Magic Cue Ball is his seed.
So… How was the Magic Cue Ball originally created, and why does it serve Lord English?
That’s your answer: each Magic Cue Ball contains a reprogrammed Lil’ Hal, fed by some incredible source of Light for information. Caliborn somehow gets his hands on those two components. We just haven’t seen how, yet.
A little bit of support for your Scratch is part AR theory (which I agree with!): AR is Dirk's mental clone, a "twin" of sorts. If Scratch is part AR, he could therefore liken himself to an uncle to Rose and not be lying, because Dirk is genetically her father. Scratch DID say that there was nothing creepy about their interactions, and that she COULD think of him as an "uncle figure." And as we all know, Scratch never lies.
You want to know where AR got his light source to become Scratch, eh? How about from Yaldabaoth, Dirk's denizen? His face is the Light symbol, and he's associated with creating man by giving it a soul. Calliope died when Caliborn killed her dream self. Well, guess who's with Dirk fighting near a denizen and only has his waking body left? Dirk's still got his glasses, so presumably AR's still a factor here. I think you see where I'm going with this.
There’s probably 111 other posts out there like this, but why not add one more.
EDIT: Because of a leap year, it’s actually April 12th, not April 13th, I’m told. Meaning, as ahpoordogsbody put it, “the heroes are arriving tomorrow.”
(Sorry that I keep attacking your inbox - I like what you have to say!) Your take on the theory about Radon and Argon as it relates to the cherubs and the alpha kids? turntechsaladquest/post/35555241314/ (linking to the original theory.)
Dave hasn't appeared in the past because it goes against the "flow" of the timeline he feels, and Paradox Space/Skaia/Whatever has indoctrinated him into following it regardless of what happens, or else everybody dies. Of course.
You’re essentially saying that Dave remains completely ignorant of the workings of the Alpha Timeline and his effect on reality, and hasn’t improved the slightest lick since he died in-session. Or is somehow even worse.
I really doubt that! If what you’re saying were true, then Dave would be completely afraid to make any jumps in time at all, ever again.
No, he just knows what the timeline wants, and if the timeline doesn’t want him to jump in the past, then he won’t, because it’d destroy everything. He knows about it, and that is /why/ he won’t jump unless his “feel for the flow” says so.
The timeline doesn’t “want” anything, and Paradox Space doesn’t “want” anything. We do! Dave does have to feel the flow, but not for when the ‘timeline, ooOoOOo’ would contradict him: What he has to feel - and he’s done so rather successfully, so far - is when wills and agents more powerful than himself have more vectors of influence, physical and knowledgable hands directly in the pie, than he can contradict with his mighty-but-limited strength and foresight.
That’s a whole damn lot of flexibility. Yes, Dave is indeed scared and will tend toward safer options when his ability to influence a part of spacetime is in question, but right here we’re talking about a nigh-empty session shielded by void and full of stupid skeletons and a queen who would take quite a while to get her fat ass off her throne. There’s currently no oppressive force with enough hands to smack Dave into oblivion for showing up and saying 'sup’.
(Note that the ‘face’ depicted in that statue(?) of Yaldabaoth (and/or Yaldabaoth minion) was flickering the same way as Scratch’s when animated in the flash.)
Doc’s green moon is artificial, likely created to his preferences. Don’t these intentional parallels line up with Lil’ Hal = DS = Doc Scratch?
Jane is the first female human to outright wear pants in this comic. The others wear leggings or skirts or some combination of both. (I don’t know if Dream Selves count, but those are uniforms everyone gets.) She’s also wearing that style of t-shirt that Dave seems to like, I forget what they’re called.
Jane voluntarily wears a mustache. Jane. Voluntarily. Wears. A Mustache.
Jane is wielding a King’s Scepter. Not only that, but she’s merged it with a giant fork, so now it’s bigger than she is. It’s a King’s Fork. Apparently forks were a nobility thing back in the day? Not really relevant, but
Mustache + The Pants + King’s Fork bigger than she is
Jane is now the manliest person in the session. Dirk and Jake are out being boys, with their shorts and utility belts. Dad Crocker is… somewhere, and the Kings seem to not be a factor. Roxy knows where the REAL party’s at. ;D
this relates back to caliborn’s “MY QuEEN. DISGuISED AS A KING. MADE MOVES LIKE A KING. WHICH IS WITHIN ITS CAPABILITY. THIS WAS DONE TO DECEIVE YOu.”
you guys those are fucking sweatpants
saving the world comfortably.
I wanted to comment on that enormous pitchfork: As what’s theoretically an Active Creation class governing the aspect of energy and power, I always figured that Jane would end up with a weapon larger than she is, outclassing the tridents of Feferi and Meenah. She’s a veritable wellspring of might!
(EDIT: And as a friend pointed out, the Scepter-based weapon she wields has Skaia on the end, which represents unlimited creative energy!)
But more than that, I wanted to mention that she is a huge goddamn cutie. <3
(And the similarity to Caliborn’s ruse may be important too, as mentioned above.)
I hope she’s not trying to look like a guy because she thinks Jake would be more likely to like her…? :c
It strikes me that a Bard of Doom would be a fairly positive person, like how Gamzee was about celebrating Hope, wouldn’t an inverted Jane celebrate Life?
Celebrating Life? Not necessarily. Not necessarily, at all. Especially with the psychologically harmful conditions under which she’s primed to invert, as per classpect inversion.
A Bard of Doom’s role is to invite destruction through sacrifice, or invite the destruction OF sacrifice.
This is very, very dangerous.
Beyond the obvious, even: What popular mythological figure is known to tempt and entice individuals to sign something away in exchange for what they want, causing disaster, and is often depicted with a red fork? (EDIT2: And in the process, degrades the healthy moral hesitation and desire to sacrifice (for their own good and others’) of individuals, using temptation, and thus plunges them down the path to darkness?)
(EDIT: And in the SAW movies, who invites people to commit painful destruction through painful sacrifice?! D: )
And imagine another scenario… A hero devotes everything in his/her being to a last ditch effort to avert disaster. They metaphorically explode against reality with everything they have, burning themselves out in an attempt at changing the course of events with one last mighty sacrifice. It has to succeed.
But then, just before their effort results in victory… what’s that they suddenly see?
A cruelly smiling girl, with a big red pitchfork. Ready to snatch it away.
If Hope and Rage are "possibility" does that mean they only make it easier or harder for other people to do stuff they were going to do anyway?
Anonymous
What are you talking about?
You know what? Let’s try a thought experiment:
You hear a sudden crash! Your house is under attack by an intruder. What do you do?
Call 911
Confront the intruder
Grab a weapon and advance
Grab a weapon and hide behind something
Hide completely
Flee the house to escape
Flee the house, after you’ve grabbed the nearest valuable things you can to keep them safe
Flee the house to find help or call 911 at a neighbor’s
These are a bunch of eminently reasonable possibilities that might occur to you.
Now, let’s change the scenario slightly, adding a dash of Rage.
You hear a sudden crash! Your house is under attack by an intruder… but upon examination, said intruder is a GIANT MECHA TWICE THE SIZE OF YOUR HOUSE. What do you do?!
Scream like a little girl
Hide
Call 911 nobody would believe you!!!
Flee like shit!!!
Notice that your options have narrowed substantially.
But… why?
You could still technically call 911, or grab a weapon, or turn allies against the intruder. But all that’s stupid, impossible! The possibilities don’t even occur to you, because you’re intimidated both logically and emotionally by your opponent. That’s the effect of Rage: closing off and narrowing your perception of feasible options.
Now, what happens if instead, you have Hope? What if you were a Knight of Hope, like Kamina?!
KAMINA: ”Whether it’s impossible or laughable… great men open up paths of battle!!!”
SIMON: ”If there’s a wall, we break it down! If there’s no path, we make one with these hands!”
Call 911AS IF!
Confront the intruderGood, good…
Grab a weapon and advanceGreat, but let’s do one better!
Grab a weapon and hide behind something
Hide completely
Flee the house to escape
Flee the house, after you’ve grabbed the nearest valuable things you can to keep them safe
Flee the house to find help or call 911 at a neighbor’s
Attack with your weapon, tear the pilot out of the mech, AND TAKE THE ROBOT AS YOUR OWN!!!
(Disclaimer: Crossed out items are still perceived as possible, I’m just getting into Kamina’s mindset, here. Do not try this at home.)
See? Hope broadened your view of the possibilities to see an open path - yes, a doable one - that you never would have otherwise realized!
—
(By the way, since I can’t find anywhere else I’ve listed it right now…)
In terms of Homestuck Classpects for Gurren Lagann characters:
Kamina — Knight of Hope
Simon — Page of Space
Princess Nia — Sylph of Heart
Kamina has a supernatural notion of… well, I’ll just paraphrase a youtube comment that summed it up nicely: What’s surprising isn’t so much how Kamina thinks the world works, but that the world happens to work exactly the way Kamina thinks it does. His perception of ridiculous, impossible-seeming possibilities and urge to thrust himself headlong into the fray to reach for them, even if it’s all bluster to mask his insecurity, manages to inspire everyone to go up against the literally colossal foes presented to them. (He’s constantly refraining to Simon: “If you can’t believe in yourself, believe in the me who believes in you!”)
Simon is one of the ones inspired by his Hope, and in fact (despite his smallness and youth) is the one Kamina looks to for strength above all others. As Kamina confides in another, there was a time where Simon, Kamina, and some others were trapped in a cave-in. Kamina was freaking out inside, thinking they were all going to die, but Simon just kept turning his drill: bit by bit, he always managed to move forward, one inch at a time. Using the mech Lagann, “Simon the Digger” manages to arm others with Space even more readily than he can use it himself: his mech is designed to integrate itself with and hijack other mechs, combining with them to create wholes stronger than their parts and generating unlimited, huge drills to fight with fueled by Simon’s fighting spirit. There are even epic moments where others use a broken off drill of Simon’s to immense effect; he arms others in every sense with his ability to move forward despite the odds, the best stealth protagonist imaginable. A Page of Space indeed, carrying along the Hope that Kamina gives him!
Princess Nia is a great example of a Sylph of Heart: one who repairs and boosts individual uniqueness. She serves this role for Simon in particular: When Simon has doubts about his usefulness, about what he amounts to when considered apart from Kamina, she’s able to reassure him that “Simon should just be Simon”, that he has strength within him all his own, placing her hands on the handles underneath his to ease his grip on his mech. (Bonus: inversion??)
But wait, I don't understand. So basically, if a Prince of Heart acts like a Sylph when he inverts his title, will it be a Sylph of Heart or a Sylph of Mind ?
Anonymous
He’d be like a Sylph of Mind, theoretically. The logic works well for Maids and Sylphs inverting themselves, so it seems there’s little reason why it wouldn’t work the other way around mechanically.
But in practice? No, I’m not exactly sure how it’d go. I suppose…..
Well, with the example of a Prince of Heart, I suppose it’d be as if they became disillusioned with Heart entirely… not hatred of Heart, though, which would result in them destroying it ever more strongly and bitterly. Rather… think of it this way. Dirk Strider is driven by Heart. As much as he effaces it with the façade and logic of one dedicated to the practice of Mind, at his core he fuels his actions with a penetrating uniqueness and determination. It’s his very soul with which he wishes to embody the elaborate ironic fantasy of a Bro, unshakable inclination allowing him to pursue that outward interaction with the world with perfect and self-aware accuracy, minding his Mindful appearance even when not another being is around to witness it. His Heart powers his efficiency at destroying Heart. Eridan was similar, his few Hopes dominating his behavior and leading him to come across to everyone as utterly hopeless.
For someone like that to turn from their aspect, they would need to suddenly abandon any semblance of attachment to it. Said inverting Prince would neither embrace it nor resent it, wield it nor wreck it… they simply would cease to give a shit about it. Dirk would have to abandon any concern for his desires or indignation for those of others, and simply operate on logic alone, afraid to impress anything he would will himself for fear of doing more of whatever harm he did in his original role.
Hm… almost like a helpful machine? (But that’s only a possibility.)
Unlike what we've seen/read from Roxy in past pages, she made nearly no typos in the recent update, sans capitalization and not using numbers as contractions. Is that just a matter of her being low on alcohol at the moment, or is there any potential aspect reversal going on? Wouldn't attempting to bring Calliope out be considered actively attempting to exploit revelation and clarity? -Archin
Anonymous
I wouldn’t say that! More like… Roxy is easily invited to indulging in submission via alcohol. Overcoming that, and gaining a firm grasp on her abilities of Void redistribution instead of marginalizing herself by simply indulging in Void, seems part of her normal growth as a Hero of her role. It was as Calliope suspected, perhaps: her alcohol imbibing was suppressing her true potential. …I /suppose/ you could interpret that as her embracing a little Light and personal free will, but don’t look at it as ghosting inversion entirely!
I mean, I get that Thief and Page are pretty clearly inverted; it explains a lot of Tavros and Vriska’s interactions and whatnot. But… Knight doesn’t seem to oppose Rogue all too much, and exploit and steal just seems like a weird connection to me.
You need to look at the “steal” class as more “redistribution”.
When the Knight class exploits their aspect, they’re practicing expertise at their aspect’s Use. They’re not creating, destroying, or moving it around necessarily; you simply give them access to a certain amount of their aspect, like Time, and they’ll act instinctively to maximise the effectiveness and damage they can squeeze out of its flow. Such as Dave whipping together ridiculous amounts of short-range stable time loops to fight from all angles at once, without needing a single doomed clone.
A class like the Rogue, however, Redistributes their aspect around the environment and between others. They move it, deliver it, clump it together or free an area of its influence, pile it onto themselves (Thieves especially do so) or onto their allies and enemies. However, just because you possess or can move something doesn’t mean you can understand, change, build, or even use it efficiently! Compare someone shuttling piles and piles of boxes full of power drills back and forth (Rogue), to someone who can actually open up a box and use the drill to build a table (Knight).
Furthermore, with the dichotomy between the Knight and Rogue specifically, it’s important to keep a specific bit of symbolism in mind: A God-Tier Rogue has a mask.
This helps represent the essence of a Rogue’s role: Their specific identity doesn’t matter. They don’t need to exalt themselves. Their aspect is simply stolen, gifted, and shifted around via their shadowy efforts, and the most you metaphorically notice of them (if you’re lucky) is a coy salute as they dive back into the forest, their Robin-Hood-esque deed already done.
A Knight, however, often grabs people’s attention. Bold, flashy, ostentatious, at the front lines. Karkat sought to become a leader, Dave sought to become a star. Their work is loud, and nobody is left wondering whether or not the Knight’s results are his or hers to own.
It’s similar to the roles of a Warrior/Knight and a Rogue in a tabletop game, really. The Knight hones their skills, charges to the front of battle, armor gleaming, and gains bragging rights. The Rogue sneaks around traps and unwary enemies, doesn’t attract attention, purloins their loot, and leaves a knife in a foe’s back before they even know the Rogue is there, if at all.
This is a theory I’ve had for some damn time: Gamzee obtained, raised, and locked in the ectobiological coordinates for Calliope/Caliborn, an ecto-child of Jade Harley, Karkat Vantas, and (optionally) also Lil’ Cal.
Yes, this is a serious theory. And it explains plenty:
EDIT: Added MORE POINTS in smalltext! :D
His use of Aradia’s Timeboxes shows us where Gamzee is hiding on the meteor: Its future! Since it eventually ends up where Calliope and Caliborn are, Gamzee could have wound forward past its entry and exit of the alpha session, free to mess around in peace.
Wherever and whenever Gamzee is hiding, he has to burn three years to match the ages of everyone else. Why not spend those three years raising a cute little skull monster baby who just happened to come down on a meteor? Once the child could fend for itself, Gamzee could have simply rewound back to when the meteor entered the alpha session, joining the others at the same age.
Someone raised Calliope/Caliborn, alchemizing(?) and setting up a bunch of equipment that they clearly do not understand, calling them ‘jujus’. (Separately from the official, timeloopy ‘jujus’.) When you take the timeboxes into account, the voided-out book, and the boxfuls of special stardust the cherubs were left to eat, Gamzee is the clear likelihood for that someone.
Many of Lord English’s features have been explained in Caliborn, but one of the looming mysteries is why he has a tendency to HONK. If Gamzee had raised him, this would be very clear!
A human/troll hybrid has the potential to be very alien, especially if one adds a corrupting element (the optional Cal) to the mix. Of the human/troll hybrids possible, Karkat && Jade makes the most sense given their personalities, symbols, elements of clothing, quirks, and associated colors. They are VERY similar to Karkat and Jade. In fact, it makes so much sense that when UU gave us her first conversation, I had initially surmised that she was a future Jade/Karkat hybrid demi-troll! (While it was eventually ruled out by her seemingly implying she was a troll, before the Cherub reveal, I still found it QUITE suspicious that the Karkat similarities were brought out in full force with her brother.)
ROMSPEC DISCLAIMER: A Karkat && Jade ectochild is NO INDICATION that Karkat/Jade will be a final pairing. In fact, it might mean the opposite, serving as the ‘resolution’ / ‘cashing-in’ of all the romantic foreshadowing between the two, and other odd coincidences like that BARK/KRAB/BRAKA code.
Why would Karkat and Jade be chosen? Why, because of Gamzee, of course! Do recall that someone locked in the ectobiological coordinates for John in his session, presumably one of the guardians. If Gamzee serves as that someone for Calliope and Caliborn by getting into their session… why, perhaps while lurking around in the background and watching everyone pre-horrorstuck, Gamzee had observed Karkat warming up to Jade? And perhaps, in his infinite wisdom whimsy, he decided it would be great if they had children? Hm? :)
Caliborn is clearly a young Lord English. Calliope is rather set to make an incredible sacrifice with her death, possibly facilitating the creation of all of Paradox Space. As the individual responsible for the existence and nature of these two(ish) individuals, Gamzee would cement his position as the most important character in Homestuck!
EDIT:ADDITIONAL POINTS:
Boltstuck added some wonderful evidence: ”We know that Andrew likes to borrow from his past works; Gamzee has already shown parallels to “Whistles: The Starlight Calliope” and there’s a good chance of Caliborn/Calliope’s origins being another call-back. — The comic centers around the titular Whistles, an innocent and well-meaning clown who’s unfailingly loyal to his evil Master and goes into brutal, violent rages when said Master is hurt or threatened. His Master is “unkillable” in that every time he is slain, a new version of him is spawned. Much like with Lord English’s multiple incarnations. Toward the end of the story, Whistles’s two fellow clowns find a way to prevent the respawning - but not before an infant version of the Master survives the attack and convinces Whistles to adopt and care for it.”
According to UU: “UU: my species has never even had a home planet.” Never?! Life and sentience require rich diversity and millions of years to evolve. Cherubs couldn’t have evolved in the void, with nothing… therefore, it’s most likely that they had a shortcut. Andrew is implying that Cherubs were ectobiologized as a race, their initial seed population growing to spread throughout the universe. And thus, they almost certainly had an external DNA source from at least one other sentient race.
Calliope and Caliborn have troll-like blood color variety, indicating trolls as a source race. However, they have no horns - only human-like skulls - and their white-irised eyes are quite human as well. Therefore, it isn’t hard to surmise that Gamzee combined a human and a troll; almost certainly a boy and a girl, to mirror the combining of them into an androgynous body (like he’s been doing with the likes of Tavrisprite), mirror normal m/f reproduction, and mirror the :o) and Do: mirthful messiahs that Gamzee once said were him all along.
The boy component is Karkat, hands down. Caliborn is unbelievably similar to him, his perfect kismesis even: Like Karkat, but worse in every way, incredibly powerful, and evil. And Karkat’s listed position is even in the exact spot between his friends that Lime would have been on the spectrum; his blood and Lime-colored blood might have been no more than a gene-swap away in the first place!
Jade is a bit tricker a choice, with circumstantial evidence like the colors, or Calliope’s symbol’s main component being a tower that looks like Jade’s house surrounded by snakes (echidna), et cetera. But it becomes incredibly clear by process of elimination: Jade is the only plausible human girl Gamzee would have known and chosen, and no other human girl fits the symbolism well enough!
And finally, there’s the narrative text here that was addressed at Jade as she stared through the fourth wall at LE’s jacket: ”But you don’t know it’s a coat. That would only invite more questions. You don’t know what it shields. Nor do you know whose shoulders it was meant to cover. If you knew that - if you even knew his name - you would understand terror no human ever has.” But that’s strange, since “Caliborn” doesn’t do the trick! So, if this name alone is supposed to inspire terror in Jade specifically… Think about it for a moment. Were Gamzee to create a Harley-Vantas ectochild, what do you suppose he’d make its last and/or middle names to fit? :D Even if Jade doesn’t know LE’s true nature, from a name like that alone (with parts of Karkat and Jade’s names blatantly in it), I think Andrew could credibly claim that no human has ever understood the terror of having unexpectedly sired a child with a grumpy alien!
Am I right, or am I right? :D
(Gamzee and Caliborn in the image arted up by my awesome friend doridachi! Click here for a larger version of the gif.) EDIT: I fixed the eyes I forgot to animate on the gif; the larger-version link will still link to the right one on all of them!
In other words, the first part of this theory is almost assuredly canon: Gamzee raised Caliborn and Calliope, likely too early for them to remember him.
What remains to be seen is their ectobiological components, which Gamzee was almost assuredly in a position to set. If you read this theory and its linked follow-up addendums, the running supposition is that those components were most likely Jade Harley &&Karkat Vantas &&Abraxas, and optionally && Lil’ Cal or some other unknown component.
In case you still didn’t buy at least the first part of the theory, the recent update gives us this:
Calliope happens to have owned Gamzee’s husktop.
(And I’ve seen this development has already caused this theory to make a few more rounds!)
Once again, the first part of this theory is assuredly canon, ie. Gamzee raising Calliope/Caliborn, a pair representing one who’s been invited to have her Rage destroyed and another who’s been invited to cause destruction through his Rage. What remains to be seen is the second part: whether Gamzee set their ectobiological components (which is likely), and if so, to what.
For those not in the know, Homestuck has a complex layer of titles and aspects that designate how a person impacts and changes reality. One game I recently played that was excellent was Bastion, a game with four highly developed characters. I will assign each character a role an explain what makes them fit it. Spoilers are ahead, so beware.
Credit to http://bladekindeyewear.tumblr.com/ for helping with the Roles.
Well, that was certainly a thing, wasn’t it? Spoilers under the cut, further than the superfluous image above.
It seems like those recurring memes the cherubs suffer might have a canon source:
[11/19/12 10:10:16 PM] Ash: update
[11/19/12 10:13:00 PM] blastyoboots: well
[11/19/12 10:13:04 PM] blastyoboots: that’s a thing isn’t it
[11/19/12 10:13:13 PM] Lucyha: …huh
[11/19/12 10:13:58 PM] Mel: You can’t explain that.
[11/19/12 10:14:22 PM] Mel: Radio tower, causing Caliborn to think thoughts that Calliope would think because of their unstable brain merging sequence.
[11/19/12 10:14:40 PM] Mel: Text on the screen, text in the narrative, never a miscommunication.
[11/19/12 10:14:44 PM] Mel: You just can’t explain that.
[11/19/12 10:15:11 PM] Romulus: once again this comic reaffirms its dedication to be the most meta thing in existence
[11/19/12 10:15:23 PM] blastyoboots: uu: AND THE FACT THAT I MIGHT NOT CLuE YOu INTO YOuR FATE ALL THE TIME.
uu: DuE TO MY AGGRAVATED APATHY OVER THE MATTER.
uu: IS AN IMMuTABLE FACT. I AM STATING FOR THE RECORD.
uu: IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT GIVING A SHIT IS WHAT IS TAKING PLACE HERE.
TT: I feel like you’ve said something like that before.
TT: Different statements, but in that exact syntax.
uu: OH. YOu KNOW WHAT ELSE I HATE?
uu: WHEN THAT FuCKING HAPPENS.
TT: Wait. You mean it wasn’t intentional?
TT: I thought it was kind of like… this thing you were doing.
uu: SHuT uP.
[11/19/12 10:16:05 PM] blastyoboots: uu: I SHOuLD HAVE KEPT IT BRIEF. AND SuRLY. LIKE I WAS GOING TO.
uu: LIKE JuST SAID.
uu: “HELLO DIRK."
uu: "I WANT TO PLAY A GAME."
uu: AND THEN LIKE.
uu: "BRO."
uu: "ROOF. NOW."
uu: "BRING JuJu."
uu: AND THAT’S IT.
uu: YEAH. THAT WOuLD HAVE BEEN GOOD.
uu: COLD FuCKING BLOODED. TO THE POINT. DAMMIT.
TT: That actually sounds familiar too.
TT: Are you sure you haven’t said something like that before?
uu: HAVE I?
uu: FuCK. I DON’T KNOW. WHATEVER.
[11/19/12 10:16:49 PM] Mel: It turns out, Caliborn was the future-past author of Homestuck all along
[11/19/12 10:16:53 PM] Mel: :V
(Mel’s ramblings are more IDE-ish, don’t take them as me committing to them.)
Perhaps this control station manages to spread memes farther than their little planet, and those two are just at the epicenter?
…Oh, shit. What if this is where the arc numbers come from, like 413??
Also:
Note the red/green dichotomy: How most of them are red, but a few green ones persist, representing Caliborn’s domination. Also… the [A6I4] ==> is prefaced by red, the link that titles and indicates the progression of Time, and the Space underneath is filled by descriptive text!
EDIT:
[11/19/12 10:27:33 PM] colwag: And now I’m like
[11/19/12 10:27:39 PM] colwag: I don’t know if I can trust the narrator at all
[11/19/12 10:27:47 PM] colwag: Like, at points in the past too
[11/19/12 10:30:02 PM] blastyoboots: I wouldn’t go that far, even though Andrew’s obviously trying to mess with us that way
[11/19/12 10:30:46 PM] blastyoboots: ahahaha!!
[11/19/12 10:30:48 PM] blastyoboots: I just realized
[11/19/12 10:30:57 PM] blastyoboots: in *ANY OTHER COMIC*
[11/19/12 10:31:10 PM] blastyoboots: this kind of revelation would cause us to groan and roll our eyes extremely hard
[11/19/12 10:31:17 PM] blastyoboots: but in *THIS* one
[11/19/12 10:31:27 PM] blastyoboots: even if we groan and eyeroll, it also gives us vague chills!
[11/19/12 10:31:39 PM] blastyoboots: it actually *scares* us
Gamzee could have told you a lot of stuff. WHO?? I can’t believe you shot him like that. What’s the matter with you? He was literally the first living being you ever met in your whole life, and you gun him down without a single word? You’ve got some problems. OH. THE CLOWN.
You seem pretty confident, Boots. Not even the slightest bit concerned that Hussie has something else in mind?
The Whistles reference always kind of sealed the first portion of the theory as a nigh certainty: That Gamzee raised and set up the environment for the young cherub(s). Recent events have been rubbing it in our faces.
It’s the second part of the theory - what ectobiological components Gamzee might have set to create them - that’s more up in the air.
Hope is one’s belief in the breadth of the possibilities open to them for pursuit, for delivery into reality, while Rage is how one’s perception of them is narrowed considerably through anger and fear.
I think you're Gamzee Ectobiology Theory is turning into your Rufio. He's fake, boots. He's gonna show up as Rufioh, but he isn't Rufio. I know it's hard Boots. I know it's hard but I'm trying to understand.
Anonymous
Once again: WHICH part of the theory are you dismissing as a likely to be averted or subverted?
“Gamzee was there when Calliope and Caliborn were first born, and raised them briefly, alchemizing a bunch of stuff for them and giving them weird rules.” This part was nigh certainly Andrew’s plan even before we got all these further hints of late. It’s Whistles writ large, and the evidence added up (and I posted the theory) before I even knew Whistles was a thing that happened and lined up almost exactly. If you doubt it, please present a plausible alternative explanation for the cherubs’ carefully arranged environment that has decent evidence. Because there are a couple. Just none more sure than Gamzee.
“Gamzee set up the cherub session’s ectobiology targeting locks.” THIS you have more reason to doubt. However, it does happen to be a rather reasonable assumption if #1 is true. Grandpa and Mom had been through the ectobiology lab before John arrived, and “someone” had both locked the monitors onto their targets (yes, “someone” explicitly) and left John a junior ectobiologist’s suit. If someone came through the cherubs’ session and did this, it was almost certainly Gamzee rather than Caliborn or Lord English, leaving the locked monitors for Caliborn to eventually find later for button-pressing.
“The cherubs’ ectobiological components were X, Y, and Z.” NOW we are completely up in the air! The possibilities here are as numerous as they are debatable. Maybe it was just another cherub or two, or Lord English himself? Sure, possibly… though the strange nature of their race and lack of home planet suggests that outside components are at least as likely. Is Abraxas a component? That seems plausible due to the distinct cherubic appearance of its bones. Are humans and trolls involved in the mix, possibly one of each (a boy and a girl together being most appropriate)? That may be thematic and explain some other cherubic features and inclinations, as I theorized, but in the end that’s just a wild guess! A guess somewhat substantiated by the idea that Gamzee would have had his pick of components, a further theory that would give certain components credence over others, but a guess no less! It’s very out there, likely the incomplete story, and should be regarded with skeptical analysis.
As the sith Emperor once said, everything so far has unfolded according to my design. I might receive a serious fall around Step 3 in lieu of success, but you’d be foolish to dismiss the possibility out of hand. And you can be certain that I will amend and add to the likely and expected combination roster as the evidence grows and unfolds, possibly changing my stance on the combination entirely.
blastyoboots: so the timelines… faded out? instead of having the members specifically killed, causing ghosts?
blastyoboots: like the Scratch does?
Benedict: that is strange, actually
Benedict: do all offshoot timelines die? is there a time limit on ghostifying?
blastyoboots: yeah
blastyoboots: apparently, if this adds up
blastyoboots: because, remember the timeline Davesprite hailed from?
Benedict: yeah, him and rose lasted a pretty long time
Benedict: maybe the timelines don’t decay, it’s just everyone in them is doomed?
Benedict: but if gamzee… can’t die, or whatever the heck is going on
Benedict: then it wouldn’t matter?
blastyoboots: no, what I meant is
blastyoboots: remember that it lasted until *Dave went back*, and then immediately faded out from dream!Rose’s perspective?
blastyoboots: there’s your time limit
blastyoboots: it lasts until it no longer has physical relevance to the alpha
Benedict: hm
Benedict: so… would that mean that every gamzee has physical relevance to the alpha?
Benedict: or, wait, no
blastyoboots: it just means that every Gamzee survived until Aradia went back
Benedict: and then there were no ghosts, just… fading out
blastyoboots: mhmm
Benedict: so doomed ghosts are only from people who die while in a doomed timeline, and if you’re not dead in time, like gamzee, you just
Benedict: cease to exist, or something
Benedict: …that would be a really disturbing fic- gamzee trying to kill himself before the timeline ended, and finding himself unable to
Benedict: come to think of it, this explains why we’ve seen so few ghosts of the beta kids
Benedict: dave created far fewer doomed time clones than aradia did
Benedict: and it’s why we haven’t seen any doomed alpha kids- they don’t have a time player, or at least they won’t until dave shows up, and so their doomed timelines are immediately irrelevant
Benedict: unless they did one of those “Bargain with the Beast” things
Benedict: i’d say we can extrapolate from this that damara created a similarly large number of doomed copies of herself during the beforus session, but we haven’t seen any direct evidence of that
blastyoboots: you didn’t realize that only Dave’s explicit doomed timelines resulted in ghosts :?
Benedict: i’d noticed it, but until the ministrife we hadn’t seen such large quantities of doomed selves in one place
Benedict: i figured the population statistics from caliborn enter were from there being more trolls than kids
Emphasis added. Seems it’s quite possibly true that you have to die before a doomed timeline fades out, or you don’t get a ghost?
TT: It reminds me of when Dave and I were trapped in the doomed timeline, and he left to change the past. TT: The timeline ceased to exist, along with my dream self, who in a way became merged with my dream self of this timeline. I kept some of her memories. TT: Is the situation similar? Similar, but more severe. Since this timeline will undergo such a violent upheaval, such a merger of memory cannot happen. You will be resigned to absolute oblivion. Unless you can discover a way to preserve yourselves.
…Huh. Seems like it could indeed be the case! That’s one mystery solved.
On your doomed timelines convo I noticed a brief mention of Damara + Beforus doomed timelines. I think I recall in Openbound some mention of Damara sabotaging the A1 session. As the alpha in the A1 session was doomed to fail, it stands to reason that the timelines Damara averted were ones where things went right. Karkat even mentioned that while passing through the bubbles that they meet alternate versions of themselves who were more successful but doomed because it wasn't supposed to happen.
lump space prince (kips): and he’s so far not died a just death or a heroic death
Vexarian: Uh…
Vexarian: That’s not how it works.
Vexarian: You die.
Vexarian: You just come back.
Vexarian: He’s still pretty fucking bullet riddled.
lump space prince (kips): have we seen how a god tiers death works
lump space prince (kips): or no
lump space prince (kips): because honestly i dont know
Steve: Yes we have.
Steve: Bec Noir killed GTier John.
Vexarian: Then he resurrected in the most fabulous possible manner.
Steve: Then John regenerated.
Steve: It’s like Captain Jack Harkness.
Vexarian: And he was good as new.
lump space prince (kips): have we seen a troll god tier die and revive yet
lump space prince (kips): because for all we know
lump space prince (kips): gamzees like
lump space prince (kips): the fuckin hulk
Vexarian: Kips that is fucking dumb as hell.
lump space prince (kips): bullets are like flys
Vexarian: Also, I refuse to believe that if Vriska can die in a single stab.
Vexarian: That Gamzee can suck up a few hundred bullets like the world’s most horrific sponge.
Vexarian: And not die.
*lump space prince (kips) lets just chalk it up as Weird Clown Shit*
blastyoboots: Caliborn doesn’t learn immortality from Gamzee, but he could be jealous of i-
blastyoboots: wait a minute
blastyoboots: they specifically called it the “secret to immortality”, so
blastyoboots: what if you’re somewhat right
lump space prince (kips): (troooooooolll blooooooooood)
blastyoboots: what if he thinks that by honking enough
Vexarian: How the fuck could I possibly be right though?
Vexarian: …
blastyoboots: and acting just clownish enough
Vexarian: Oh my god.
lump space prince (kips): (high bloods live longer liiiiiiiiiiiiiiives)
blastyoboots: yep
blastyoboots: you see what I mean it seems
lump space prince (kips): me or vex
blastyoboots: vex, not you you enormous tool
lump space prince (kips): wow
I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS FUCKER WON’T DIE. He’s a hilarious, rascally clown! You know how it is with clowns. NO?? They are notoriously difficult to kill for reasons that basically don’t make any sense. I’m personally not aware of a single timeline in which this codpiece packing moron dies.
It means crazy clowns just won’t die for some reason. In adventures such as yours, they tend to linger long past their welcome. They linger and linger and linger, and just when you think you’re totally fed up with their bullshit and you can’t take another second of it, they just linger some more. And you never know what they’re up to, and they’re always scheming in the shadows, and it’s quite possible that whatever master plan they’re hatching just doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense at all. But it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter how stupid the clown’s schemes are, or how sick of him everybody is. He just. Won’t. Die.
So, do I have this straight? Gamzee honks because LE honks, whereas LE honks because when he was Caliborn, he may have seen from Gamzee that honking clowns are immortal, thereby convincing him to take up honking every once in while in a bid for immortality. Ultimately, Gamzee honks because Gamzee honks... it seems like a big honking paradox.
Anonymous
Quite honking true. (Though, again, Lord English’s HONKing at powerful moments could be due to other reasons.)
Usually these sorts of looping bits of information have to have an external source - a plausible, innate place it at least could have come from without being looping and wholly self-generated.
In this case, we can’t quite be sure yet. But if I had to guess? My strongest sense of it is that it probably came from Gamzee’s Heart.
The innate and unique individual soul is full of powerful inclinations, in Homestuck. Even cut and duplicated across a Scratch, Dave Strider still gravitated towards those Stiller shades, still expressed himself through the almighty Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff. These were predispositions and penchants coded into his very essence, an inevitable result of the core of who he was. Dave Strider’s impact on reality was necessarily those things. That’s the essential power that the Heart aspect has over how existence unfolds.
And in this case, it’s perhaps a fair bet - a guess, but a nearly sure guess - that HONKing is an inseparable component of Gamzee’s essence. He HONKs because he was given an excuse to HONK, but at the same time he was always meant to HONK, and always would. It’s simply who he is.
And from that core origin spins a vast loop that nigh wholly traverses Paradox Space as a whole.
The first part of the theory seems to give reasons why Caliborn might steal Jake’s body, appearance, or place, down to jealousy of his relationship with Dirk and the golden pistols of Jake’s referencing Face/Off. Nothing objectionable, there; we’d already figured that Lord English’s immortality has a chance of involving body-swapping, stealing the body of anyone who manages to ‘defeat’ him.
The second part ties into the theory that Calliope’s dreamself took the form of her troll persona, and further extrapolates that Caliborn’s dreamself might resemble Jake English. It might be the case; I mean, Caliborn did say:
IT IS A VIEW OF MY DEAD SISTER. WHAT A BEAUTIFUL SIGHT. SHE REALLY MAKES. A MORE BREATHTAKING CORPSE. THAN I EVER IMAGINED. Whatever you say, weirdo.
However, personally, I subscribe to neither of the second part of the theory (yet). To me, it looks like Calliope’s dreamself is wearing slightly larger, slightly widened “clown shoes” that could hide those Cherub-like feet, just like the flying Sarcophagus’s widened footroom in [S] Caliborn: Enter. But it’s definitely something to think about.
i WAS sort of wondering why we didn’t get to see dream!calliope’s face even though we know what calliope looks like now…
But here’s the thing: Andrew never drew the rest of the page in the first place, because we weren’t supposed to see what cherubs looked like, and then simply copied it to the monitor. "Not showing it", merely the discretion shot of her lower body, might have been the natural course of things; after all, the mystery of Calliope’s appearance had already been revealed, and he didn’t need to put in any extra effort to show us more of an earlier view of her.
Is the obfuscation one of convenience, or intentional? You can’t tell. Perhaps the obfuscation was one of convenience, but he realized as he was doing it, “Heh… come to think of it, this will mess with some people. I’m so glad I chose to do it this way”. We have no way of telling yet, and despite such a tempting theory I’m not sure at all of his narrative intent.
all the symbolism with horuss and rufioh and dirk and jake, right
like all the stuff that is the same
and then
rufioh wants to break up with horuss
this is incredibly clear foreshadowing to dirkjake not being endgame
blastyoboots: yeah i gue-
blastyoboots: …..
blastyoboots: oh shit
You can probably connect the dots from there. Not regarding Dirk and Jake, whose relationship was doomed due to a wholly different relationship’s inevitability, but more importantly regarding the girl in the equation.
Of course, for those not following, let’s have a little recap?
Tiara! Subtle.
Meek as can be, DamaraJane shared romantic leanings with RufiohJake. However…
RufiohJake ran off with HorussDirk. A relationship where RufiohJake was taught to fight, taught to fly, to enjoy a measure of confidence in himself… but one that wasn’t a perfect match, which RufiohJake (may or may not have) wanted to end at some point, but would find himself without the courage to do so, as it was difficult to stand against the imperturbable HorussDirk.
GT: Well im more than a little sure he likes me in that way if you catch my drift. GT: And what with how he is… GT: Just so relentless and aggressive about everything you know? GG: Yeaaah. GT: So i just start to wonder deep down if maybe its inevitable. GG: What’s inevitable? GT: Him and me. As more than just best buddies. GG: Uhhhhh… GT: I know if he has his heart set on something he will never let up. GT: So maybe its just going to happen and things will be easier that way and i should just try to come to terms with it?
DamaraJane was obviously distraught about losing her one true love to another, but that alone wasn’t enough to transform her personality. What pushed her off of a cliff…
Was Meenah’s intervention and antagonization! (In Jane’s case, this would likely apply to the Condesce, or possibly also to the Auto Responder.)
I always wondered why Andrew made the particular romantic subplot between those pre-Scratch trolls so unnecessarily complicated. Why was so much detail warranted, I wondered? Now we know: He was carefully phrasing their situation to mirror how Jane’s will unfold!
So, just how disastrous was Damara’s turn? It shouldn’t be understated:
For multiple separate ghosts of an individual to show up in the afterlife, they must be killed within doomed timelines. And in the ministrife, as well as from Damara’s word, we can see that there are thousands of duplicates… so much so, because Damara kept killing her friends and dooming the timeline whenever they got closer to success!
In the link at the top, I showed you how dangerous an inverted Jane Crocker could be; now, you have another enormous canon hint to how dangerous she will be.
But Dirk is already paired with Jake. Of course, it's possible that it won't work out, but doesn't that inherently make it possible to invalidate every other pairing that's been confirmed so far? If Dirk/Gamzee becomes a thing, then any other pre-existing relationship is capable of falling apart since Dirk/Jake would have to fall apart in order to facilitate that. Which basically results in everything being a romantic clusterfuck once again.
Romantic arcs are played for tension, plot, and potentially momentous resolutions. They follow certain ups and downs, and those ups and downs are simple enough to foresee that they can be rudimentarily traced.
Dirk and Jake’s relationship had approximately five minutes of tension before they got together. (Compare that to the likes of Rose and Kanaya, who - without really experiencing much shared conflict - still managed to keep us on edge for well over a year!) Furthermore, plot-important relationships often have to prove their worth by overcoming some sort of climactic conflict, proving the relationship’s fortitude against the environment or themselves. In the Romspec threads, I referred to such a conflict as a “Dramatic Break” - the climax of the pressure that threatens to push the gravitating pair apart, physically and/or emotionally; it can take the form of a fight, a breach of trust, a physical segregation, a competing love interest, or even one of their deaths. Take Terezi dooming and killing a Dave, for example, breaking Dave’s trust in her and putting a wedge in the relationship, which we strongly predicted in the Romspec thread over a month before it happened.
Even Kanaya and Rose are set to encounter such a conflict later, though with most of the tension drained out of the relationship arc, the stakes against its survival are hardly as high. Dirk and Jake’s relationship is more fragile, hasn’t had a true conflict. It had a mere month or two of buildup, Jake expressed out loud how unsure he was at the prospect, and Jake has a crushed and still advancing competing love interest - one unjustly turned from him by Lil Hal’s plotting - who is facing a very likely plot-important role inversion based on what the romantic snarl is doing to her mental state!!!
In other words, Dirk and Jake will suffer a dramatic break, the device that almost all plot-important relationships use to cash in their tension in a motion of narrative sensation.
The question is, given the break: Will they reunite? And the answer is often complicated, depending on the nature of the break.
In the Romspec thread, we performed something I termed “branching analysis”: We thought of all the forms the relationship’s dramatic break could take, and determined what could ensue if each occurred. Then, we prescribed nominal likelihoods to each branch. The result looked something like this (click the DAVE STRIDER spoiler in the first post):
The RUL3S OF ROM4NTIC DR4M4 say that a break will come in this relationship. Furthermore, the [S] Past Karkat: Wake up update gives us (2h) and (2i) recently, which may be used to conclude that a stronger dramatic break than previously thought is required to divide the relationship even temporarily. This narrows down our options…
Branching Event #1: Karkat dramatically rescues Terezi, proving his interest/feelings for her. Terezi breaks with Dave for Karkat. Justification: Mixed. (2i) shows that this is how Karkat has been alienated, and (2h) shows how hard Karkat would have to work to win her back. That makes this, more or less, Karkat’s main option regardless of scenario. Secondly, there has to be an impetus danger for Karkat to rescue Terezi from; sleep, and its danger to the trolls at its current time, may serve this purpose. If not, then the only dangers allowing for this scenario would be the rush to the Rift, and whatever happens afterwards; this would not be able to happen at any prior point in time, otherwise. Still, this may not be strong enough unless Dave/Terezi is weakened beforehand: A milder version of Event #2 or Event #3 would allow more clearly for this, or make it more permanent. Implications: This depends directly on the strength of Karkat’s dramatic rescue. If the danger was more mild/emotional and Karkat wasn’t risking his life in the process, Terezi would be open to reconsider and possibly come back to Dave. However, if this is a Dream!Jade level rescue, Terezi may stay with Karkat permanently (she’s already had her dramatic break with him too). This would force Dave to find other romantic options. (2k) points toward Jade.
Branching Event #2: Dave betrays Terezi’s trust, forcing Terezi to break things off. Justification: Mixed. The lack of overt enthusiasm on Dave’s part, especially compared to Terezi in (2h), seems to leave room for this to happen, possibly by smooching one of the other kids. However, timeline shenanigans seem to prevent most of these possibilities, unless we assume that Terezi didn’t look far enough into Future Dave x3’s timeline to see everything that happens. Given her previous planning, this is a serious assumption. However, a weaker version of this could be likely, where Terezi misinterprets Dave as having stronger feelings for someone else, and opens room for Event #1 or Event #3 to occur. (2b) seems to hint at such a possibility. (2k) indicates future relationship growth between Dave and Jade, which might cause this. Implications: These would depend on Dave’s feelings for the other kids, and his willingness to make a move in front of Terezi; given how he watches his image, a serious screw-up on his part is not as likely as a misunderstanding on Dave’s part. If Terezi breaks with him over a misunderstanding and nothing else interferes, Dave could repair things into a permanent relationship.
Branching Event #3: Terezi betrays Dave’s trust, forcing Dave to break things off. Justification:Quite Decent. Terezi’s competition with Vriska, combined with (4a) and especially (4c), could lead to such an event; a weaker version of Event #2 happening before this would almost fully justify this possibility. In retaliation for a perceived disloyalty/offense on Dave’s part, she could do something to him or one of the other kids (like John again to assist her competition), something Dave can’t forgive. This would fulfill the manipulative, murderous tendencies that Terezi has previously exhibited, but have never been on full display close to the current time. It’s a part of her nature, a part the kids only tangentially saw with her alt-murder of John. This is one of the only imaginable events that would once again show off her skills to the readers… with disastrous consequences for her. (4d) seems to offer further confirmation. Implications: Serious. The event must be quite severe for the relationship to break as it needs to, and if it’s just a hair too severe, Dave may never forgive her. And even if it’s the less severe scenario, it would provide Karkat opportunity to win her back ala Event #1, probably permanently. Dave/Terezi is still possible under such a scenario, but it seems likely that their relationship would need to overcome serious obstacles to re-secure, with a good chance of failure. Not knowing the situation, I’d give it a 1/3 or ¼ chance that Dave/Terezi could pull through in such a scenario.
That post was last edited at the end of December 2010. Things have changed quite a lot since then, haven’t they? :)
The recovery from the break between Dave and Terezi (#3, as predicted) turned out to be rather low-profile, Terezi and Dave seemingly entering their relationship offscreen. The “dramatic break” didn’t have a very dramatic resolution… which has allowed Karkat to transition in, recently. Terezi is becoming more distant from Dave, Karkat is getting closer, and the likes of Rose have hinted to Dave that perhaps his relationship isn’t going to last.
Karkat and Terezi have already had their dramatic break, and it seems as if they’re building to an onscreen - and possibly dramatic - resolution. If this happens, Karkat and Terezi will likely be locked in as a permanent relationship through the end of Homestuck, unless they meet death!
(And it doesn’t hurt to mention, if I recall correctly, that the romantic movies on Karkat’s walls were ones where the main character loses his true love only to regain her later!)
Do you see? There’s a science to these relationship arcs. The idea that one relationship “might not work out” equating to “chaos” is nonsense.
And you can branch out the possibilities with Dirk and Jake, but there’s one big deciding factor that points to the relationship being permanently broken in some way. And that factor - as I mentioned - is Gamzee/Dirk.
Sometimes, a character arc demands that romance is important to it. With the introduction of the romantic misstep Gamzee had with Tavros - and the fact that Gamzee isn’t going to die (which is the joke) unless he dies the most hilariously heroic death in Homestuck, something I’ve been saying and could have told you even before Hussie stated it out loud - a dramatic and stable red romance in his character arc is just about guaranteed.
Given that, here’s the link to my reasoning… but the short answer is that Gamzee has no other plausible options. His red destination is Dirk and nobody else, to an extent that I was becoming certain of it before Cascade!
To quote some of myself from the nested links I just gave you:
There was a bit of extra context there, but let me re-sum my logic simply:
Gamzee is staying alive until future notice. He’s living through the timeskip.
Gamzee is obviously going to participate in flushed romance. The failed attempt with Tavros is buildup to it. Before the plot ends or he dies, wewillsee him paired with somebody.
Now at this point, before [S] Cascade, I concluded that none of the remaining kids or trolls seemed possible fits for Gamzee. Furthermore, I knew that we would be getting a guardian swap post-Scratch, meaning Bro, Mom, Grandpa, and Nanna would be the players. And that they would be eminently shippable.
From what we’ve seen so far, Gamzee leans toward boys, sick rap-offs, Lil’ Cal, can flashstep-puppeteer, and only interfaced onscreen with a single human kid while on the meteor (a Strider), immediately going somewhat black for him.
And other boring things like adding up the pairings, who’s free and who’s not, stuff I’m too tired to rehash right now.
So, basically, before Act 6 even started, I predicted that alt!Bro would be gay and eventually pair up with Gamzee.
Canon has abided by this so far; nothing has yet dissuaded me from this opinion. In fact, it’s gained followers steadily since the initial “what, that’s crazy, you’re crazy” reaction people had before. Because it makes sense.
And if you subtract all the nearly-already-paired kids and trolls from the equation – eg, Rose/Kanaya, Terezi/Dave, Jade/Karkat, Aradia/Sollux(/Feferi, he get2 both giirl2) - there just isn’t room for many other possibilities.
Just Dirk/Gamzee. Dirk/Gamzee, and the royal (Jane, Roxy, Vriska)»(Jake, John) romantic clusterfuck that still doesn’t quite add up without one of them dying. Or someone new coming in.
See how it all adds up? Gamzee has eventual dibs on Dirk, so it’s easy to see that Dirk’s fragile relationship with Jake is rather likely doomed to fail.
Which makes sense!
Considering how likely it is that Jane and Jake both end up DEAD. :D
all the symbolism with horuss and rufioh and dirk and jake, right
like all the stuff that is the same
and then
rufioh wants to break up with horuss
this is incredibly clear foreshadowing to dirkjake not being endgame
blastyoboots: yeah i gue-
blastyoboots: …..
blastyoboots: oh shit
You can probably connect the dots from there. Not regarding Dirk and Jake, whose relationship was doomed due to a wholly different relationship’s inevitability, but more importantly regarding the girl in the equation.
Of course, for those not following, let’s have a little recap?
Tiara! Subtle.
Meek as can be, DamaraJane shared romantic leanings with RufiohJake. However…
RufiohJake ran off with HorussDirk. A relationship where RufiohJake was taught to fight, taught to fly, to enjoy a measure of confidence in himself… but one that wasn’t a perfect match, which RufiohJake (may or may not have) wanted to end at some point, but would find himself without the courage to do so, as it was difficult to stand against the imperturbable HorussDirk.
GT: Well im more than a little sure he likes me in that way if you catch my drift. GT: And what with how he is… GT: Just so relentless and aggressive about everything you know? GG: Yeaaah. GT: So i just start to wonder deep down if maybe its inevitable. GG: What’s inevitable? GT: Him and me. As more than just best buddies. GG: Uhhhhh… GT: I know if he has his heart set on something he will never let up. GT: So maybe its just going to happen and things will be easier that way and i should just try to come to terms with it?
DamaraJane was obviously distraught about losing her one true love to another, but that alone wasn’t enough to transform her personality. What pushed her off of a cliff…
Was Meenah’s intervention and antagonization! (In Jane’s case, this would likely apply to the Condesce, or possibly also to the Auto Responder.)
I always wondered why Andrew made the particular romantic subplot between those pre-Scratch trolls so unnecessarily complicated. Why was so much detail warranted, I wondered? Now we know: He was carefully phrasing their situation to mirror how Jane’s will unfold!
So, just how disastrous was Damara’s turn? It shouldn’t be understated:
For multiple separate ghosts of an individual to show up in the afterlife, they must be killed within doomed timelines. And in the ministrife, as well as from Damara’s word, we can see that there are thousands of duplicates… so much so, because Damara kept killing her friends and dooming the timeline whenever they got closer to success!
In the link at the top, I showed you how dangerous an inverted Jane Crocker could be; now, you have another enormous canon hint to how dangerous she will be.
And just one more closing note:
SHIT SHIT FUCK SHIT FUCK
It turns out I missed a monumental implication of this connection.
Read this part of Aranea’s explanation of it all:
Unfortunately, you unleashed something even you weren’t prepared for, and you had to deal with her yourself. After a long 8loody duel, she killed you. And you would have stayed dead if not for me!
Now, I didn’t bring this part of it up earlier. I knew there were plenty of hints to their rivalry, to at least some sort of fight between the Condesce and Jane…
pipefan413: The baroness would raise her very strictly, mentoring her in the art of baking. The girl took to the lessons with fierce determination. Her only act of defiance left was to one day surpass the baroness in skill, and beat her at her own game. […]
…But the batterwitch was determined to make sure this destiny would never be realized. In her limitless cruelty she would do all in her power to keep [Jane and Jake] apart for the rest of their lives. pipefan413: The girl that day swore she would bring down the baroness and her evil empire. She would use the many secrets she’d learned over the years against her, and began carefully plotting her downfall. pipefan413: Years went by. The girl was nearly ready to put her plan into action. But then, just like that, the baroness disappeared. She was never seen or heard from again.
…but I figured she’d have allies in the fight, and didn’t see any possible plot relevance to the unlikely possibility of Jane Crocker defeating the Condesce singlehandedly. Why would Andrew possibly write the plot that way? It didn’t make any sense, and even if it did, there was no reason it was more likely than any other unfolding of events.
But that’s because I forgot about the CURSE!!!
His curse is one of conditional mortality, with the desired outcome contingent on her service.
The Handmaid will enlist the Condesce, extending the same bargain once offered to her. It will be the sort involving neither negotiation nor possibility of refusal, expressed in terms plainly understood by the psychotic genocidal.
The two last trolls alive, blood of rust and royalty, will make each other pay for the crimes against their race. Their payment will be mutually dealt in the currency of punishment and reward at once. The Condesce will be rewarded with the power and immortality her new service entails, and punished by the grueling slavery for which it is synonymous. And you, young lady, are to be punished by death at the hands of your replacement. And so too will this be your reward.
I had forgotten completely about Lord English’s powerful immortality curse, which is transferred to her MURDERER when a cursed servant is finally killed!
TT: Her boss supposedly had jacked her power level through the roof. I even heard, and don’t quote me on this, that she may have been over 9000.
What is your speculation for jades romantic future? With dave and karkat and anyone else?
I considered doing this in ask-reply form, because it’s so tentative that I didn’t feel like having it rebloggable, but yolo.
Let me quickly go over my take on the romantic arcs I’m sure of…
Here are the ones that seem solid.
Jane –> DEAD, by character-arc corruption and descent (80% certainty)
Jake –> DEAD, via Lord English possession (80% certainty)
Karkat <3 Terezi (90% certainty)
Rose <3 Kanaya
Dirk <3 Gamzee
Kanaya <> Vriska (unless she never sees her again… which seems unlikely)
Kanaya <3< Gamzee
Terezi <3< Vriska (even if she never sees her again!)
Karkat <3< Caliborn (no to any deep relationship, but yes to him technically being his destined, epic kismesis)
(Karkat <> Gamzee, duh)
So… here’s my reasoning.
Jane and Jake are “strangled by the red string”. But no, I don’t mean that like the trope at all… what I mean is that their inborn romance has the potential to literally strangle them, sort of like their destined attraction acting as a meta-level kind of Destiny Bond. Jane and Jake either both live, or both die. Even if one finds love elsewhere, it’s nearly impossible to imagine either going on with life without the other at least nearby and living… sort of like Karkat and Terezi. (Quite clingy, Karkat is.)
Add in the narrative hints about them, the growing clues that Jane will descend entirely, or that Jake may lose his head or have his body stolen from underneath him upon ‘defeating’ Lord English, have his face taken like the movie his golden guns reference…
EB: in my foolishness, i came very close to prototyping your grandpa. GG: D: GG: john, try to be more careful! EB: we very nearly had to face our grandfatherly paradox-dad as a last boss. EB: that would probably be the worst case scenario. GG: um….. GG: what?
Their combined likelihood of survival becomes lower and lower.
Jane was always meant to be the counterexample to John. John was the one who grew up with a 'normal’ and loving father, goofed around a ton, greeted his game and quests with plucky enthusiasm, and realized his role to become a heroic God. Jane is the one who is also shown to grow up with the same 'normal’, caring father, in the same normal house, with the same plucky, vivacious, and quite frivolous demeanor… only for her resolve to fail, and her will to fall to death and destruction!
If Jake isn’t torn apart by Lord English’s intervention, rest assured that the women/robots in his life will finish him off. Jane, Lil’ Hal (destined to become Doc Scratch), and possibly Vriska, might find themselves with ample opportunity to put him in harm’s way.
Terezi is slowly dissolving away from Dave, on a path to reunite with Karkat unless Karkat gets suddenly distracted by a new (living) suitor. There doesn’t appear to be anything Dave could possibly do to forestall her path.
Rose and Kanaya have solidified past most of the huge amount of tension in their relationship’s leadup, with an enormous onscreen display of bewildered, drunken romance. They’re likely to have a true one-to-one conflict / dramatic break, but this will likely be a physical challenge or something regarding a challenge to part in order to resurrect Kanaya’s race or heal Paradox Space, environmental factors threatening to separate them more than each others’ emotions, in my opinion. (Others would disagree.) Especially since the two have virtually no other plausible romantic options. (Others would disagree even more vehemently.)
Dirk and Gamzee are a destined couple; Gamzee, who will certainly either live to the end of Homestuck or die the most absurdly Heroic death one could possibly imagine, has romance in the future of his character arc, and Dirk is so much the only option that I predicted he’d be a homosexual just from the relationship’s raw likelihood, before [S] Cascade.
There are also some hints that the unbelievably epic, 'destined’ Kismesis that Karkat has been waiting for all his life is Lord English himself, in a way. Not that an actual relationship will take place, but Caliborn is essentially a meaner, nastier, stupider Karkat, and threatens all existence. Karkat wouldn’t find a more perfect destined rival anywhere in Paradox Space. :)
Terezi <3< Vriska has always been our prototype kismesis example, despite its ups and downs; one of the most obvious and solid kismeses in the entire comic. Terezi was never annoyed by anyone as much as she was by Vriska, except possibly Gamzee lately… which Rose and Kanaya have assured us is unacceptable and doomed. Kanaya has shown that she now has the resolve to stand up to Vriska and smack her down when she makes a mistake, and that Vriska would enjoy it rather than seeing her as an enemy as Kanaya had long feared. The elements are all there… provided Vriska is actually alive again for any length of time. They seem the 'destined’ relationships, in a way, even if Vriska dies a second time or stays dead. It’d make them widows, sort of?
Alright. Now we’re onto the fudgy bits… here’s where things get complicated.
UNPAIRED MALES:
John
Dave
(Davesprite?)
(Tavros?)
UNPAIRED FEMALES:
Roxy
Jade
(Vriska)
And herein lies the dilemma.
Vriska has yet to cause her foretold “unfathomable destruction”, likely out in the Furthest Ring (but possibly afterward). She has a reasonable chance of finding a way to cheat back to life out there, even if she has to betray Meenah or even Tavros to do so. (Of course, the extent to which it might be considered 'betrayal’, if at all, when it unfolds, would speak to just how large or small her chances of eventual redemption and a secured lifespan will be.)
Vriska has a whole ton of romantic plot leaning on John, and a huge advantage in the relationship game if she resurrects. However, her competition will be steadily growing stronger in Roxy Lalonde, the other thief after John’s heart. The Roxy/John ship has had plenty of subtly seeded evidence, even before the Scratch (read underneath the Spongebob gif in the link). And right now, John is almost certainly holding a ring…
…that Roxy herself may have cast into the Void.
It’s a struggle between Light, the broad and obvious overtures of Vriska’s in-your-face chances, against Void, the subtle and disconnected shadows building up to Roxy’s eventual stab at John from behind.
And I don’t know who will win. It’s a toss-up. And if Vriska wins, which would normally seem somewhat more likely… what happens to Roxy???
But anyway… moving on from John, that simply leaves Jade and Dave, right? Straightforward, right?Wrong!!!
Dave is starting to accumulate some heavy foreshadowing that of the huge, major original characters, he himself - the one who’s something of an author insert based character in personality! - is going to be the one to bite the dust before the story ends, as the links describe. Foreshadowing so strong and slow-progressing that even Davesprite doesn’t have the narrative weight to bail him out.
There is an out, though. One out, the only one I’ve been able to think of.
It’s the only thing strong enough to steal a level of metanarrative doom that took [S] Cascade to first foreshadow. And I honestly can’t tell you what the chances are of it happening, or her even possessing the opportunity.
What’s left for Jade if Dave dies? Well… that’s hard to say! Perhaps Davesprite? Possibly a newly confident Tavros, reforged and reversed from the damaging sun of Vriska’s inversion-inducing and relationship-dooming abuse? I couldn’t tell you for sure.
Possibly even Karkat, if something miraculous or tragic gets in the way of Terezi uniting with him. (Such as Terezi/Davesprite or something weirder.) After all, of the “sure” ships I gave at the top, you’ll see that some of them weren’t at a 100% chance.
(Of the “unlikely ships”, precluded by the way the plot seems to be going and other things, I personally enjoy the prospect of Jane/Karkat. Sharing shocked expressions, freaking out at everyone else’s reality-defying shenanigans while retaining a resolute measure of normalcy… you can see it, can’t you?)
And I don’t see why you think Dirk and ONLY Dirk will live if every other Alpha kid is dead! Yea, you’ve thought of reasons for the other three and not for him, but Hussie loves his symmetry. Ever notice how he likes to have an equal number of male and female characters in any given subset of the geodesic cast, barring the Midnight Crew and Felt? If he leaves Dirk alive, he’ll probably leave one of the alpha girls alive (or revive her through shenanigans). If he kills all the alpha girls, he’ll probably kill both alpha boys.
Dammit, sorry! I didn’t think ahead that far. :c This is exactly why we did extended analysis of the branching possibilities in Romspec.
So… first of all, I want to emphasize that Roxy sacrificing herself to avert Dave’s foreshadowed death is a small and as-of-yet unknown probability. I said that her sacrifice would be the only possible event with the strength to prevent Dave’s death; I didn’t say whether it was necessarily that likely. We won’t know until events have unfolded further.
But second, yes, I agree with you. In the case where Roxy, Jane, and Jake die - and keep in mind, even if Roxy dies, those other two are only mostly sure things - Dirk would surely die as well. I would still hold Gamzee/Dirk as solid in that situation, and they may even die working together. Or fighting each other. It’s hard to tell with Gamzee. :)
Regardless, that male/female ratio rule of yours holds mostly true, and we should keep it in mind for the future.
EDIT2: And one more thing.
There’s a slight potential that Roxy and Vriska may both end up DEAD (in Vriska’s case, possibly *again*) at once.
If that’s the case, John may encounter a choice - possibly a Denizen choice - to revive one or the other!
Anyway… hope all those meandering musings were helpful! Now you have an impression of my vague ideas on the pulse of the story and its impending disasters.
(Totally worth writing this up instead of finishing the Breath and Blood post.)
Romspec founder BlastYoBoots, your resident Seer of Doom, out!<3
One of the ideas most central to Foucalt’s work is the Panopticon, a theoretical prison structure that is designed such that a single guard can monitor a very large number of prison cells arranged in a cylindrical pattern from a tower in the center, built such that the prisoners can’t actually see the guard. The idea is that the prisoners will inevitably end up self-monitoring their own behavior (and monitoring each other’s behavior) because, while it’s theoretically possible there’s not even anyone in the guard tower, that’s far too dangerous a hypothesis to test. Stories in which characters monitor each other in secret, or believe that other characters might be monitoring them, are pretty strongly in his theoretical territory. One really terrific example is Hamlet; if you’re familiar with its plot, those elements should probably be immediately apparent.
And that’s pretty much a central aspect to a huge number of plotlines in Homestuck! Everything from dream bubbles to Caliborn’s monitors center around the idea of characters watching, studying and surveilling each other. Time loops also play into this idea; they’re self-maintaining systems that don’t necessarily need a direct source that are made in such a way that they must work. Doc Scratch and Lord English work on an M.O. of monitoring absolutely everything, and (if the plan to strategically have Lord English attack specific locations works out) his inability to keep himself hidden might be his undoing. Caliborn’s chess game is another great example; by deliberately disguising key information, he gained an impossible upper hand.
Right! This is largely true, in a sense.
Lord English retains an informational and perceptual advantage on his victims, keeping them deprived of knowledge like the meaning behind the Ultimate Riddle to hide the impact individuals that might oppose him have on reality. He misleads their perception of events to disguise the true forces at work, getting them to believe that “magic” is responsible for their abilities rather than their innate power, calling items “magic” or “jujus” to keep people from questioning their true origins and workings; this act of perceptual shielding is an exercise of the Rage aspect, how possibilities are hidden from our view by secrecy, fear, anger, and intimidation.
However, a crucial session blanketed in Void restricts his vision somewhat. It means he cannot use Doc Scratch to omnisciently nudge events into his favor from the outside or preconditions, and has little choice but to step out into the open to conduct events.
Apart from however much his clownish servant can bring the young Caliborn his keys, inviting the destruction of the secrecy obscuring his view of their session.
Adding to your "Jake might end up dead" theory: guess who's holding the fenestrated plane that John and Jade are going to pop out AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT of DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO HIS FACE?
As funny as that may sound like it could be, these kids still have Skaia on their side, nudging events and timing to and fro with the butterfly effect. Coincidence isn’t going to be what kills them.
If you want someone killed by the tiny ship ripping through their bodies (and somehow not getting wrecked in the process), then someone else would almost surely have to be holding the window up as if intending that effect on someone else. Or if it’s an accident, it would have to be an enemy holding it up to a hero, or a hero holding it up to an enemy.
Not sure if you've seen this already, but I came across a post on my dashboard a while back which suggested that the Alpha session's version of Prospit will play a role in Karkat and Terezi getting back together. (Namely, that Terezi always wanted to show the planet to Karkat but never got the chance to, so they'll have a Moment there). Penny for your thoughts?
Anonymous
Wait, could THAT be what Mituna did??! So they could ALL GO GOD-TIER? :O!!!!
vexarian asked: “Are you drunk or something, because that conclusion is pretty inexplicable.”
Well, it’s at least something worth considering, isn’t it?
Mituna did something huge and important back in the trolls’ alpha session, implied even to be crucial to our heroes’ present chance of victory. But what was it? Until now, I didn’t have the slightest clue.
However… all the surviving Non-God-Tier trolls (and Gamzee, who’s up in the air) are Prospit dreamers. Some theorists have insisted that the trolls will ascend before the end, though as with Mituna’s sacrifice, they had no clue about the details that would result in such a thing. But if Mituna’s great sacrifice was to launch the alpha troll session’s Prospit, Quest Crypts and all, across Paradox Space…?
Mituna is the Heir of Doom, one who invites change in Sacrifice and change through Sacrifice. Such a momentous act, presumably crucial for Paradox Space’s survival, definitely fits within the context of his role!
Breath is the aspect of freedom, quest, direction, delivery, frivolity and detachment. Blood is the other side of its coin, its complement, governing bonds, promises, responsibility, combined will and worldly ties. Where Breath is flight, Blood is shackles.
As the dichotomy concerning the way paths unite or twist away through reality, both of these aspects are incredibly powerful, and important for ultimate victory over Lord English. Below the cut, we’ll go into the evidence and potential for both aspects, and the actual or theoretical heroes thereof.
Starting with a look at John Egbert, the Heir of Breath… the most effective character so far at leveraging his role over existence, even before he ascended!
AG: There’s more to the realization of our roles than gaining flashy powers.
The role of a Hero is his or her ability to have a certain effect on the unfolding of reality. Reality is decided by people, by circumstance, by actions and choices, much more so than by a boy’s ability to send a magic gust of wind up someone’s skirt. In fact, the “flashy powers” are sometimes arguably the least important part of one’s role.
So, what effect has John had on others, in his capacity as an Heir of Breath?
As the passive Change class, John’s role is likely to invite change in Breath, and to invite change through Breath. In effect, he becomes a nexus through which Breath changes, both around him and in others; sometimes by his will, sometimes “as if by the will of the aspect”.
but yeah, i got you this because i think you’re really creative and you could make something nice with it if you put your mind to it. and it might help you take your mind off a lot of all this serious business you’re always absorbed in. you know, all this weirdo pseudo-gothy stuff or whatever. frankly it’s kind of depressing.
He gifted a pair of knitting needles that gave her a hobby, inspired great lengths of reciprocation in her own gift to him, and later defined the very way she fought and addressed the world.
i went to a weird asian store the other day and saw this rad shirt, so i got it and i’m wearing it now! but there was a blue one too which was way more awesome, and i wanted you to have it. i know you like green a lot, but maybe you’d like to try wearing blue sometimes? i bet you’d look like a million bucks! also i know you’ve been frustrated lately about how your pumpkins keep disappearing. well, i can’t begin to explain why that’s happening! all i can do is give you these so you can plant some more. don’t give up, jade! wherever those dumb old pumpkins went off to, i’m sure you know the fun is in growing them and taking care of them until they’re ready!
He suggested trying a different color, and persevering in her quest to grow pumpkins when she was on the verge of surrender… when in actuality, the entire gift arrived in the past, setting Jade on the path not just to grow pumpkins, but to find and connect her friends in the first place!
Huge, nearly character-defining changes in each of his friends, each with a single gift. Three for three.
“You’re upset that you’re stuck under your Bro’s shadow! Why not try some different shades, and find your own path?”
“You keep stewing about in serious issues! Why not have some fun, mix up your hobbies, create instead of stagnate?”
As if to say, “Why not try a change in direction?”
Breath is quest, goals, freedom, direction, frivolity, and detachment from the everyday ties and rigors of the world around oneself. John is the nexus via which Breath changes!
You can see it in the way he tempts conversations to twist and meander, lays breadcrumbs for others to take this way and that, as if he’s twirling yarn in front of a cat:
GT: so you’re a time traveler? GA: No GA: We Dont Actually Travel Through GA: Uh GA: Well GA: Not All Of Us Do GA: One Of Us Does Though GA: Thats Not What We Are Talking About Here And Is Aside From The Point GT: so let me see if i have this straight… GT: you are a time traveling space alien from the future, sent here to study humans? GA: No GT: are you from mars? is it a mission of peace? GA: No John You Werent Listening GT: what does your time machine look like? a phone booth? phone booths are a popular thing for some reason. GA: Damn It GT: were you lured to earth by a huge gyroscopey thing that jodie foster piloted in contact, while matthew mcconaughey sort of acted as her spiritual guide i guess… GA: What The Hell GT: and then he kind of preached to her about having faith instead of believing in the sciences so hard all the time, and i guess in the end she believed him, maybe? GT: actually, im not even sure what the point of mcconaughey was in that movie. but he was still awesome. GT: and then jodie found her dad on an alien planet… but i think he was a ghost or something? or maybe an alien in disguise. GT: and then she went home and nobody believed her, but you just KNOW mcconaughey believed her. GT: because he had all the faith. and i mean ALL OF IT. GT: anyway, does that have any applicability to your cosmic interstellar astrojourney? GA: Okay Youre Even Dumber Than The Rose Human Thats Incredible Really GT: pff, i know i’m dumber than rose, that is not much of a burn, dude!
How he misdirects people this way and that, distracting them from the point for laughs:
TAVROS: iT’S FOR PRIVATE SENTIMENTAL PURPOSES, TAVROS: i DON’T WANT TO SAY, JOHN: that’s cool. guess i will just enjoy this ring forever, as my property. TAVROS: oKAAAAAY, TAVROS: i’LL TELL YOU, TAVROS: yOU’RE AN AWFUL HUMAN, bY THE WAY, JOHN: yeah right, dude. would an awful guy be wearing such a sweet, priceless ring? i don’t think so! TAVROS: oH MY GOD, tHAT’S SUCH BAD LOGIC, tHAT YOU’RE KNOWINGLY USING TO BE A WORSE ENEMY, JOHN: yeah… JOHN: you sure did explain that, i guess.
And how he hardly has to make an effort to get others sending themselves on lengthy quests:
TT: and fred savage was like his child prankster sidekick. GA: Is This An Adversary You Have Encountered On Your Quest TT: no, it’s a movie. TT: you should ask john about it, because he thinks it’s awesome, which it is. GA: It Seems You Put Stock In Johns Assessment Of Things GA: Even Really Uninteresting Things That Are Pretty Terrible To Listen To GA: He Is Either The Leader Of Your Party Or You Hold Whatever The Human Equivalent Of Mating Fondness For Him Is TT: yeah, i got him this really cool bunny for his birthday, and it’s really nicely knitted and everything. TT: because i am basically in love with him, you are right. GA: Uh Okay TT: heh, just kidding. i’m sure john knows it’s cause i am really thoughtful and i bet he really appreciates the present, and would say thank you if he were here! GA: Okay Human Courtship Is Definitely A Strange Thing And Its Sort Of Blowing My Mind Listening To This GA: I Think Ill Talk To Someone Else Now TT: why don’t you talk to john? GA: Maybe GA: When Along His Timeline Would You Recommend Communicating With Him TT: oh man, i don’t know. TT: why don’t you pick the time that will make the most complicated mess out of everything imaginable? TT: you know that’s what you’re gonna do anyway.
EB: did you know nicolas cage was almost going to play superman one time? CG: OH MY THROBBING PHLEGM LOBE, WHO GIVES A BARFING FUCK ABOUT THAT. CG: JOHN EGBERT, YOU HAVE ASSASSINATED MY PATIENCE. CG: ADIOS LOSER. EB: wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EB: get back to me in a couple minutes, ok? CG: SD;LKFJSD;LKFJSDLFKJ; CG: FINE.
Or to completely change the course they thought they had:
CG: YOU’LL GET PLENTY OF DIRT ON ALL THIS FROM ME IN FUTURE CONVERSATIONS. CG: TEDIOUS CONVERSATIONS. CG: ONES I’VE ALREADY HAD WITH YOU. CG: WHERE YOUR DEMEANOR WILL GRADUALLY BECOME INEXPLICABLY AND REVOLTINGLY FRIENDLY TOWARDS US. CG: AND SO I GUESS IT JUST WAS KIND OF INFECTIOUS AND NOW WE’RE ALL BUDDIES I THINK. CG: IT’S REALLY WEIRD. CG: THIS HUMAN EMOTION YOU CALL FRIENDSHIP. EB: friendship isn’t an emotion fucknuts. CG: SEE, THAT IS WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT. CG: YOU’RE MUCH MORE TOLERABLE A GUY THAN I THOUGHT AT FIRST, OK JOHN?
You and your rabbit friend approach a gentleman wrapped in a fine white cloth, and his courageous cohort, a young man riding a great gust of wind!
You are so impressed, you forget what you are supposed to be doing.
…The aspect even passively doing this around him as if with a will of its own, distracting another’s sense of direction to keep him safe:
You consult your proud long snout for assistance with the hunt. You pick up the maddening scent of one of the young graveyard stuffers. You are sure it is the same one you slaughtered earlier, and yet his stench remains, confounding you from every direction. It is as if THE BREEZE which carries it deliberately seeks to obfuscate the odor’s origin. Your thoughts become more murderous with each blustery taunt.
I didn’t always understand the appeal of John as a character, ranking him in the middle of my liked characters list. But after a while, I suddenly noticed how enjoyable he was for the things his conversations did to others, making his pesterlogs some of the most enjoyable to read. I wrote the following two years ago, in a character rankings thread, back when we knew jack shit about the import of classes and roles:
I didn’t really see why I should think John was such an amazing character until I realized his consistent effect on the other party. He’s goofy and doesn’t really understand anything, but he understands just enough about his friends and others to make cutting, hilarious, almost unintentional insights that can change people for the better, even if he’s off the mark. It’s not what he says himself, but what he brings about in others that makes him so great to read. I mean, if you wall him off from everyone else… he kind of fails.
That’s why I take issue with the complaint of protagonist syndrome, here. John is very little by himself, but enhances all the characters around him immensely. Imagine if John were doomed to stay the least powerful and/or game-advancing of the kids and trolls combined; notice how little that would do to the story, or his beneficial role in it.
And yet at the same time, this comes with a vulnerability. As one who invites change in direction, John is very susceptible to invitations to change in his direction. Almost unfailingly, anyone who hands him a quest can expect him to rocket off in that direction with wild abandon.
GC: SO JOHN 4CTU4LLY D1D WH4T 1 S41D? TG: yeah TG: im telling you TG: huge pushover TG: he will do what you say TG: unless it happens to be for his own good TG: then all a sudden hes a tough nut to crack go figure GC: NOW 1 F33L K1ND4 B4D
Now, wait a minute. Unless it happens to be for his own good. What does that mean??
EB: you can’t track down through time WHAT YOU CAN’T CATCH! EB: pchoooooo! TG: oh god did you just blast off EB: no… EB: but that would have been sweet if i did just then.
TG: did you blast off like a spazzy douche yet or what EB: yeah, of course! EB: there was no way i wasn’t trying out this sweet ride. TG: god dammit what do i have to do to make you believe me
Think about what Dave’s having a hard time getting John to do. Whenever people tell him to fly off in this direction or that, or give him a goal, he almost always dives straight in.
But Dave is telling him to stop. Not an alternative direction, but to cease his direction. To stay belted down to the ground.
TG: so you believe me then TG: about future me TG: and like TG: him turning into a floating sword bird EB: um… EB: ok, i don’t know anything about that… EB: but it doesn’t matter! EB: you’re my best bro, and if you say not to go then i won’t go.
Wait, wait… as makaristmas pointed out, we should back up a minute on that jetpack. How did John get that jetpack working in the first place?
GC: 1 GOT TH3 COD3S FOR 4LL TH3 OTH3R 34RTH CR4P STUCK 1NS1D3 1T FROM YOUR FR13NDS GC: FROM D1FF3R3NT T1M3S GC: WH3N TH3Y W3R3 F33L1NG COOP3R4T1V3
The items tying John to the ground, keeping him from blasting off in a rocket pack to his death, were objects belonging to his friends! His bonds! Just like the trust in Dave that got John to reconsider once he had.
TG: did you blast off like a spazzy douche yet or what EB: yeah, of course! EB: there was no way i wasn’t trying out this sweet ride. TG: god dammit what do i have to do to make you believe me TG: fist bump my future self til i got bloody knuckles and write you an even sappier bday note in my own blood
What stopped John wasn’t Breath. What stopped him was Blood! And his ability to appreciate Blood alongside Breath is an essential part of the path to becoming a fully realized hero.
As opposed to Tavros, who latched onto an impossible goal in Vriska’s destruction, failed to reconsider, stop, or inform his friends of what he was doing and ask for help, leading to his downfall.
How do we know what Blood entails? Well, let’s look at Karkat.
From the introductions of each troll in Hivebent and onward, Andrew knew what their game roles were, what they meant, and used said roles to shape their personalities.
His blood color, or different blood colors for trolls in general, was an afterthought as far as Andrew was concerned. And we already know what a Knight does, a powerful warrior class that exploits the flow of their aspect as a weapon. So, what themes have coursed through Karkat’s arc from the beginning?
You have a passion for RIDICULOUSLY TERRIBLE ROMANTIC MOVIES AND ROMCOMS.
You’ve got AMBITION. You were meant to be a bigshot. To be in charge of something huge and really important, and to be totally ruthless about it.
Leadership? Romance?
CG: I WONDER WHAT KIND OF SHITTY THING I DID TO DESERVE SUCH AN AWFUL BEST FRIEND.
[…]
CG: FRIENDSHIP ISN’T A DISEASE SHITSPONGE. CG: IT’S LIKE… CG: A MISTAKE. CG: A BIG JOKE OF NATURE.
Friendship?
CG: I AM A HATCHED LEADER AND YOU KNOW IT.
CG: ARE WE NOT FRIENDS ANYMORE BECAUSE OF STUFF I SAID. TA: eheheheh you LIITERALLY a2k me that every tiime are you jokiing.
Friendship and leadership, leadership and friendship. Hmm!
Oh, and another thing:
CG: ACTUALLY WHY DON’T WE MAKE A PACT TO DELETE THIS ONE FROM OUR LOGS, I’M JUST SHUDDERING HERE SCROLLING UP AND READING THIS. TA: yeah ok.
AG: Ok, then I’ll ask Jack. CG: NO, JACK WON’T TELL, I MADE HIM PROMISE HE WOULDN’T TELL.
CG: OK, LOOK. CG: LET’S JUST AGREE TO NEVER BRING IT UP AGAIN. CG: THE STUFF I WAS BABBLING ABOUT EARLIER. EB: yeah, well we never really talked about it in the past, so i guess we do agree to that.
FCG: HOW’S THIS FOR A PACT, EVERYBODY. FCG: PAST KARKAT ONLY TALKS TO PAST JADE FROM NOW ON, AND THE TWO OF THEM CAN BICKER LIKE SHITTY LITTLE CHILDREN FOR HOURS/YEARS RESPECTIVELY. FCG: AND FUTURE KARKAT ONLY TALKS TO FUTURE JADE, AN ARRANGEMENT WHEREIN ONLY INTELLIGENT DISCOURSE TAKES PLACE BETWEEN TWO CIVILIZED, MATURE, GROWN ASSED ADULTS. FCG: IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK??????
CCG: HEY ASSHOLE CCG: CONSIDER OUR “PACT” OVER PCA: wwevve got a pact CCG: NOT ANYMORE CCG: YOU ARE DEAD TO ME
Pacts. Pacts, promises…
And alliances.
See the big picture coming together?
Karkat’s two major accomplishments during the trolls’ session were:
Forming a blood-inspired alliance with Jack Noir to overthrow the Black Queen.
Getting the two teams to work together to advance and defeat the Black King.
CG: NO, I’M YOUR LEADER BECAUSE OF MY INCREDIBLE TACTICAL SKILLS AND MY ABILITY TO MOBILIZE AND MOTIVATE A BUNCH OF USELESS PEOPLE TOWARD A COMMON GOAL, AND BECAUSE I’M EXTREMELY AMBITIOUS AND INTREPID. ALSO BECAUSE LEADERSHIP IS IN MY BLOOD. WE’VE BEEN OVER THIS.
A Knight instinctively exploits their aspect, and Karkat instinctively exploits Blood:Relationships, bonds, promises, pacts…
PCG: GAMZEE ISN’T SUPPOSED TO GO CRAZY. PCG: I THINK IF HE DOES PCG: IT MEANS WE FUCKED SOMETHING UP. PCG: IT MEANS *I* FUCKED SOMETHING UP. PCG: HE’S MY RESPONSIBILITY, I HAVE TO MAKE SURE HE’S SAFE.
And responsibility. The shackles that anchor people to the world around them, and to each other.
That dichotomy between the aspects - spiritual freedom and detachment, versus worldly ties - rings very strong between John and Karkat in particular.
John has a reputation for smoothly handling almost any shocking revelation virtually unscathed:
TT: Anyway, your grandma managed to run away when she was quite young. Maybe it was a traumatic event like dog murder that prompted her to flee, who knows.
TT: Whatever the case, her bro stayed behind. The guy must have been seriously immune to witnessing fucked up shit, because he went on to be a famous comedian. A real kindly old cornball. A nicer guy you couldn’t hope to meet, they say.
Which forms a very heavy contrast to Karkat, who has a reputation for flipping out about everything, no matter how insignificant:
TA: KK dont fliip your 2hiit about thii2 but iim 2ettiing you up two play a game wiith 2ome people. CG: WHY WOULD I FLIP MY SHIT ABOUT THAT. TA: becau2e you fliip your 2hiit about everythiing. CG: WELL WILL YOU LOOK AT THIS. CG: HERE IS MY SHIT, AND YET IT REMAINS UNFLIPPED. CG: JUST SITTING THERE ON THE SKILLET, GETTING BURNED ON ONE SIDE. CG: IT’S A MIRACLE.
CG: YOU’RE GETTING OFF ON THIS AREN’T YOU CT: D —> Uh CG: IF YOU ASK ME FOR A TOWEL I AM GOING TO FLIP MY SHIT RIGHT OFF THIS FUCKING METEOR CG: IT WILL JUST BE ME, SPINNING AND SPINNING AND SPINNING INTO ENDLESS NOTHING, SCREAMING
KARKAT: EVERYBODY OUT OF THE GODDAMN WAY. KARKAT: I GOT A LAB FULL OF HUMANS, A MOUTH FULL OF YELLING, AND A TORTURED PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE FULL OF TOTALLY HYSTERICAL EMOTIONS AND UNAIRED GRIEVANCES AT PRACTICALLY EVERYBODY.
CG: I WAS THE GUY IN YOUR POSITION, TO MAKE ALL THESE CLONES, AND FRANKLY IT ALL KIND OF FREAKED ME THE HELL OUT. EB: huh… EB: yeah, i guess now that you mention it, i am finding it all a little strange… CG: OH, ONLY JUST NOW??? CG: FUCK YOU ARE FAST, I HOPE YOU GOT THE MAD BOONBUCKS TO PAY OFF THOSE SPEEDING TICKETS. EB: no, no, i mean the ghost stuff and paradoxes are one thing of course… EB: it’s something else. EB: it’s just… EB: this is really weird… CG: WHAT’S SO WEIRD ABOUT IT. EB: well, normally humans hatch… EB: from like these slimy pods. EB: then we wriggle out as a little pink larva. CG: OH REALLY. CG: HUH, MAYBE WE HAVE MORE IN COMMON THAN I THOUGHT. EB: (hehehehehehehe)
And it’s not just in a mental and spiritual sense; that dichotomy applies in a physical sense, too! John and Tavros were both the first ones to fly within their sessions.
Whereas, with Karkat:
EB: it was long! and windy. but a lot of fun. EB: i really like flying, it’s so much fun. CG: OH, I BET IT IS JUST THE BIGGEST FUCKING BLAST A GUY CAN HAVE WITHOUT A PAIR OF SHAME GLOBES SECURED IN HIS TWO TREMBLING FISTS. EB: you… haven’t tried it? CG: EVERY DOUCHE GOT TO FLY BUT ME, EVEN THE CRIPPLE.
He hasn’t flown, and not even his God-Tier form had wings!
KARKAT: PPPFFUUUUUUUHHHHHHH……… WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE… ROSE: Hm? SOLLUX: kk, what the fuck? SOLLUX: were you h0lding your breath that wh0le time? KARKAT: YEAH KARKAT: SO? TEREZI: OH GOD, YOU DUMMY TEREZI: YOU DONT 4CTU4LLY H4V3 TO HOLD YOUR BR34TH WH3N YOUR3 B31NG QU13T! KARKAT: OK YEAH KARKAT: I MEAN, OF COURSE IT SOUNDS OBVIOUS WHEN YOU PUT IT LIKE THAT
John was prone to sleeping even when it wasn’t wise, and Tavros spent much of his session sleeping to cope, prancing about detached from the world without any responsibilities. Karkat was so bound to his responsibilities that he barely slept across their 600 hour session!
FAG: Hey, I’m gone. I just think you should relax. FAG: You were wound up so tight through the whole adventure, and now here in the present you’re a8out to explode. It’s insuffera8le! CCG: EVERYBODY, DID YOU HEAR THAT?? SUPERFUTURE VRISKA HAS AN IMPORTANT LIFE LESSON FOR US ALL. CCG: WE DON’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT OUR PRESENT RESPONSIBILIES AND OBLIGATIONS! CCG: BECAUSE AS IT TURNS OUT, IN THE FUTURE ALL THAT STUFF ALREADY HAPPENED. WE’RE OFF THE FUCKING HOOK! CCG: TIME TO RELAX. LET’S ALL CRAWL INTO OUR COCOONS AND GET BUSY STIMULATING OUR AUTOEROGENOUS SHAME GLOBES. CCG: FIRST ONE TO START A WANK FIRE GETS A SHINY BOONDOLLAR. CCG: THIS IS AN ORDER FROM YOUR LEADER. FAG: Hahahahahahahaha. CCG banned FAG from responding to memo.
A Blood player is tied to his environment, his friends, the living world around him. Responsibility, duty, and loyalty keeps him on the ground, focused on the practical and unimaginary. Whereas, a Breath player retains a level of detachment, flying above, past, and through the obstacles and demands of emotional reality. And at Breath’s peak:
Not even physical reality can touch them!
To use Blood as a weapon is to shackle yourself with allies, bonding people together and uniting their wills. To invite change in Breath:
Is to use misdirection and escape!
AG: Roll your dice. Make your move. AG: Advance or a8scond! AT: i CAN’T ABSCOND, AT: tHERE’S NO, AT: uHH, aBSCONDING PLACE, AG: 8ut a8sconding is what you do 8est! AG: I 8n’t managed to cloud a scenario yet you couldn’t squawk out of in a 8lazing trail of cluck8east feathers. AG: You cannot hope to 8eat Tavros Nitram in an a8scond-off. AG: He is simply the 8est there is!
It’s quite harmful to a Breath player to feel trapped, to feel boxed in, whether by the shackles of the physical world or those of relationships:
JADE: but youve been so testy, as if youre committed to not having a good time JOHN: well, maybe i’m just getting a little tired of being stuck on this lame boat! JOHN: don’t you think it’s gotten kind of old? JADE: yeah, i can see how you might find it a little slow here JADE: i dunno, i havent minded much… maybe its different for me though because i used to live all alone? JOHN: oh sure, i’m sure it’s GREAT for you. you get to spend your days smooching and breaking up with dave sprite and what not, and you can shrink down to any old planet you feel like, any time. whereas i have to make this whole big deal of ASKING you to shrink or unshrink me, and… JADE: but i dont mind doing that any time!!! JOHN: i know, but you think i want to bug you about that at the drop of a hat? when you’re busy and on dates and stuff? i just happen to have respect for something called PERSONAL BOUNDARIES, jade.
Whereas a Blood player may remain desperately stubborn and obsessed with their bonds, both the ones they have and the ones they’ve ‘lost’:
CG: ARE WE NOT FRIENDS ANYMORE BECAUSE OF STUFF I SAID. TA: eheheheh you LIITERALLY a2k me that every tiime are you jokiing.
To spread his message throughout the world they took to the seas in the vessel of legend known as the First Ship. It was said their love went beyond the four quadrants, transcending the grid entirely. Whatever that nonsense actually means.
In fact, as you saw hints of just above with John: lashing down a Breath player or keeping a Blood player away from their bonds, for extended periods of time, could lead to them inverting their aspect!
After all, in the right context, Blood can be a Breath player’s greatest weakness:
AT: aFTER A CERTAIN MOMENT, i SPENT JUST ABOUT EVERY WAKING HOUR BEING ASLEEP, GG: wow why did you sleep so much???
AT: iT WAS JUST A BETTER WAY TO BE, mORE PEACEFUL AND FUN AND, AT: i GUESS,
AT: tHERE WAS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED THAT WAS INCREDIBLY TERRIBLE, AT: aND SAD,
AT: aND MADE ME FEEL TERRIBLE AND SAD AND SLEEPY, sO i SLEPT, a LOT,
One Breath player cooped up on a ship and deprived of romance to sate his hormones, another Breath player lashed at the hip to Vriska Serket and deprived of his free will, you could find that John and Tavros both displayed the propensity to act like a Mage of Blood (active Understanding) and a Thief of Blood (active Stealing), respectively:
JOHN: HE DEMONSTRATED HIS MASTERY OVER HEAVY MACHINERY! wow, he can operate a crane! i am thrilled by the exploits of this pedantic weenie. JOHN: i guess he’s actually like cage’s estranged sidekick? almost like the robin that batman never realized he had. JOHN: now that i think about it, this movie was always an oddly poignant tale of bromance between cage and cusack. just two bros separated by destiny, waiting to be united. JOHN: when they finally come together to kick some ass, it is arguably more moving than when he reunites with his wife and daughter! JOHN: i wonder if i’ll think that scene sucks now too? it used to move me to tears, but now i’ll probably think it’s so lame, i’m almost afraid to watch it. maybe i should try to leave at least SOME memories untainted. JADE: john you are kind of sounding like a crazy person here
TAVROS: i SAW IT FIRST,
TAVROS: (wE had a deAl,) JOHN: (quit it!) TAVROS: (why Are you sUcH a liar,) JOHN: (shut up. i’m keeping it.) TAVROS: (thiS is noT cOOl,) TAVROS: (you’re PrevenTing joYful human sTYled matrimonY frOM happEning,) JOHN: (yeah right. like she would even say yes.) JOHN: (i don’t even think she’s really your girlfriend. i think you made that up!) TAVROS: (wow, no, wOw,) TAVROS: (you wEnt thERE,)
And in turn, Karkat seems to have finally been broken by his estrangement from Terezi, offering to fly off with Meenah away from all his friends on a free, lonely quest to mount a strike against Lord English in the void.
(EDIT: While John’s ghosting of the traits of his inverted role were ephemeral, Tavros may very well be headed to disastrously and fully inverting his role to act like a Thief of Blood… or more specifically, to act like Captain Hook instead of Peter Pan. For more on the importance of this, read my Tavros Nitram in Scarlet theorypost!)
Which should sound vaguely familiar, come to think of it. After all, the dichotomy between Breath and Blood is represented by more than just its respective Heroes.
The Parcel Mistress, bound to Breath, dedicated to delivery, direction, and quest.
And the Warweary Villein, inspired by Blood, who knew that the democratic wills of a thousand pawns united were enough to topple a King.
The cruel massacre of an army of allies was enough to nearly break WV and turn him away from leadership, on to wandering and frivolity, a Wayward Vagabond. The loss of her home in its cruel destruction, and later WV and her other friends on Earth, was enough to forge PM into a hardened warrior, willing to journey in a straight line unceasing for over a thousand days, all for dedication to a quest that was eventually no less than self-appointed. Blood to Breath.
WV?: Survey casualties.
Everyone is dead.
Everyone except you.
Your RAG OF SOULS begins to soak in the BLOOD OF THE FALLEN. You suppose it could be poetic?
No, instead you think it is just sad.
You were very foolish to believe you could be a leader of men. Look at what bearing that flag has wrought.
Perhaps one day you will find something new to bear. A burden befitting of the peasant you truly are.
Oh my what’s that shiny thing in the water.
Unity to delivery. You think the strangely unmixing colors of the blood and water in that river were a coincidence? :)
WV has an absurd talent for uniting people and defusing situations diplomatically:
You settle the dispute in the only way you can presently imagine how to settle a dispute. With cans of lukewarm sugary liquid and centuries-old rations.
If only you had access to some means of heating things up.
But it matters not. You warm yourselves in the glow of this human emotion called friendship.
And the Ring he made his quest item was especially fitting… because the RINGS symbolize BLOOD!<– (CLICK AND READ for Blood’s symbolism in the Rings and Red Miles, and how Karkat might eventually be able to use one! This link also covers how Jack Noir, if anything, might represent something of a Prince of Blood.)
Blood is also symbolized by Flags, especially red ones, as WV once carried. These represent the tight and necessary interplay of Breath and Blood: after all, a flag needs wind to fly, and even Breath-borne mail starts and ends at destinations: mailboxes marked by red flags!
You wield your TRUSTY KNIFE.
It is actually a…
You’re not sure what they’re called. It’s an old rusted one of those red mailbox arm-swing flappy doodads, either for letting you know there is mail in the box, or maybe for alerting the mailman to outgoing mail to be collected. You don’t know, really. You’ve wrapped a little piece of cloth around it for the grip.
Karkat’s ‘red flags’ were tied down, unable to blow in the wind, his role unrealized.
You don’t have time for fancy poetry. It’s almost as useless as those arm-swing flappy things on mailboxes, assuming you even knew what those were, which you don’t. Trolls don’t have mail. Mail is almost as useless as poetry to them. Poetry is the swing arm flappy dealy of words, and mail is the red tilty lever doodad of giving people shit.
Teamwork is one of Blood’s greatest strengths, mighty amidst scattered bands of individualistic heroes. Will is power against reality, and Blood can unite the strength and diversity of myriad wills to a single goal. (And as a complete failure of a Blood player, Kankri was ineffectual and dwelt on the meaningless instead of truly helping his pre-Scratch team of trolls… thus, they were not a team at all, and failed to unite to succeed in their session.)
CG: YEAH. THAT’S THE ROSE HUMAN. CG: SHE’S APPARENTLY PRETTY SARCASTIC. CG: IT’S IN MY NOTES. GA: You Have Notes On Them CG: YES. GA: I Guess GA: Thats Why Youre Our Leader Karkat CG: NO, I’M YOUR LEADER BECAUSE OF MY INCREDIBLE TACTICAL SKILLS AND MY ABILITY TO MOBILIZE AND MOTIVATE A BUNCH OF USELESS PEOPLE TOWARD A COMMON GOAL, AND BECAUSE I’M EXTREMELY AMBITIOUS AND INTREPID. ALSO BECAUSE LEADERSHIP IS IN MY BLOOD. WE’VE BEEN OVER THIS. GA: Statements Like That Are Also Why Youre Our Leader
But a team still needs that goal, a goal, some goal. A direction, inspiration behind which to unite their wills and plow forward through reality.
TT: That’s why you’re our leader, John. EB: huh? TT: Optimism through stalwart skepticism is a defect not everyone is lucky enough to be cursed with. EB: that’s stupid. EB: i’m not your leader, i am your FRIEND, there is a BIG difference! TT: Statements like that are also why you’re our leader.
Yours is quite an inspiring story, actually. It’s just a shame that all of your accomplishments will be so horrible. But that’s really beside the point. YEAH, I ALREADY KNEW I WAS INCREDIBLE AND SPECIAL. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO. INSPIRE ME. SAVE YOUR BREATH FUCKHEAD.
Unity can form a mighty band of brothers, who discover a common Direction to pursue. Or Direction can take the shape of an inspirational figure, allies naturally Uniting around their lofty goals. Either makes a team.
Like their functions in a living body, Blood and Breath are necessary for any group to unite and influence reality. Blood circulates and pulses through your limbs, delivering nourishment to each separate cell so they may act as one. But needs repeated infusions of oxygen, each Breath, each goal keeping the body driven towards its next. Without unity, individuals break off fragmented and without their collective power, towards separate desires like dispersing wind. Without a goal, a team stagnates and dissolves, unity suffocated as if holding their collective Breath.
Direction without Unity is folly, like Tavros’s doomed charge.
Which is why, even with a singular Breathy quest, you need Blood as a restraint, a safety net… or rather, a safety belt!
> John: Buckle up.
Safety is the most important thing.
> WV?: Follow suit.
This is why seat belt safety should always be paramount.
Remember to buckle up!
(In the main Homestuck discussion thread on the forums, people even joked at the time that Homestuck had secretly been a setup for a driving/seatbelt PSA all along. Looking back, one user even referenced the “Friendship is Paramount” mspa forum rule and asked:)
(If only he knew the metaphors potentially at play! :D )
Without both Breath and Blood, defeating a foe like Lord English - one more powerful than any lone individual - is impossible!
But anyway… back to the aspects’ more separate functions.
PM is an especially fitting example of Breath. After all, delivery is Breath!
“This thing right here? You have never seen a Parcel Pyxis? Incomprehensible! Okay I’ll play your pretend game for a minute. It is a receptacle connected to our network of Pipes. We use them to send stuff to different places. They are fully intertwined with our customs and social practices.
If there is something we want, we chisel it on a Minitablet and drop it in. Who receives it? Hard to say! But if you encounter a Minitablet and you possess what is chiseled on it, it is considered only polite to drop it in the Pyxis!
Similarly, if you encounter a Parcel Pyxis that has a prize in it already, you are obligated to keep the prize for yourself! Consider it to be a gift to you from the Breeze. This is just the way things work.
Whenever one of us is standing near one of these, we feel compelled to give this little speech about it.”
But you wonder where all of her sweet weapons went.
She indicates in the language of plush toy pantomime that she has no idea! They all blew away in the
BREEZE.
The presents and deliveries to and from John, the coincidences that lead people to and from him, the Breeze that flows through LoWaS and routes items to and from those who offer and ask… Breath is the surest distance between two estranged points. Where Space can see locations and traverse physical distances, Breath bridges the gaps emotionally, connects beings regardless of location. It flies above, outside, around the physical, detached from the plane of existence…
…and can deliver you something even from your dreams.
(The ring is real, likely one of the void rings of the post-Scratch session, cast into the Void somehow; perhaps by Roxy. But without Breath and will, it wouldn’t be in John’s hand.)
All this detachment and intangibility arguably ties in to a little Gnostic idea called “Pneuma”. However, I know next to jack shit about mythology; the one who pointed to the connection was LilDurandal, who sent me the incomplete notes of a now-deleted post-in-progress she made after one of our conversations, some of which I’ll reproduce here:
(Again, ALL OF THE FOLLOWING UNTIL THE BLOCKQUOTE ENDS is from LilDurandal, NOT ME, except where I made SPECIFIC NOTES in double-brackets!!!)
The Heart and Hope denizens are from gnostic cosmology, so I think it’s fair to say that certain gnostic concepts are likely to be a Thing. This can get a little tricky to research if you aren’t familiar with gnosticism - translators like to translate these two words into the same English word, possibly in order to spite me - but: The gnostics believed that a person is composed of three elements: body, psyche, and pneuma.
[And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)]
In gnostic systems, the material universe is the creation of the demiurge, a flawed creator god; in some systems, he is called Yaldabaoth. The material universe is imperfect and filled with suffering because it is the flawed creation of an inferior being, and the bodies and souls of humans are among the demiurge’s creations. But the pneuma - breath, spirit - is a divine spark that does not come from the demiurge: it is immaterial, and the material world is its prison.
First, this might help clarify ‘attachment’ and ‘detachment,’ for those who are unfamiliar with the concepts.
There are three conditions which often look alike Yet differ completely, flourish in the same hedgerow: Attachment to self and to things and to persons, detachment From self and from things and from persons; and, growing between them, indifference Which resembles the others as death resembles life, Being between two lives - unflowering, between The live and the dead nettle. This is the use of memory: For liberation - not less of love but expanding Of love beyond desire, and so liberation From the future as well as the past. Thus, love of a country Begins as an attachment to our own field of action And comes to find that action of little importance Though never indifferent. History may be servitude, History may be freedom. See, now they vanish, The faces and places, with the self which, as it could, loved them, To become renewed, transfigured, in another pattern. Sin is Behovely, but All shall be well, and All manner of thing shall be well.
Absence diminishes little passions and increases great ones, as wind extinguishes a candle and fans a flame.
The Breath aspect is dispassionate; it is the aspect of detachment, of freedom and independence, the immaterial, and the numinous.
Heroes of Breath have a distinct, and honestly rather unsettling, tendency towards what seems like calmness or detachment from events or information that most people would react strongly to. To put it lightly, they are prone to massive underreaction.
[[And physically, John now has the ability to dissolve into pure spirit, taking detachment from the world to a new level. - Boots]]
Their relative detatchment from the world around them can make them prone to fantasizing or to becoming distracted by their own imaginations, and to being a little out of step with what is going on around them.
Meenah told John she wanted to stab Roxy just to see what would happen; a few minutes later, John felt the need to tell her this:
MEENAH: nerd JOHN: um. JOHN: yeah, sorry.
And they can be inattentive to practical concerns.
But it also means they find it easy to go with the flow and to handle changing circumstances by being flexible (if not pliable).
=>How is it possible to die twice? What else is there to lose, after you’ve lost your life - what dies the second time that didn’t the first?
Don’t you think the dreaming dead seem peculiarly detached?
Don’t some of them seem like they’re missing something, somehow?
Consider the extreme detatchment of Jade’s dream self when she is retrieved from death:
And our resident psychopomp says worldly concerns aren’t the business of the dead.
In gnosticism, the psyche and the body are creations of the demiurge and remain in the material universe. Only the pneuma can escape it and enter heaven.
The Breath symbol is the Life symbol, slightly modified and flipped on its side.
WHOA!!! Thanks, LilDurandal! Now it may be speculative, but that’s one hell of a revelation, there, if the broad ghost connection holds.
And, despite how uncertain it is compared to the rest… shouldn’t it? After all, who started out as our Ghost-obsessed ghostyTrickster, and is now about as difficult to strike as the incorporeal?
To go on a wilder, more uncertain tangent, this also might play into his romantic arc with Vriska, and potentially Roxy… in the event that, for example, both of them happen to end up DEAD as ghosts. And then…
SALAMANDER: It’s said the Heir will wake the denizen by playing a magical song only he can play, and when he wakes up, the Heir will meet the terrible beast face to face!
SALAMANDER: It is then that he will be offered The Choice. The nature of the Heir’s triumph depends on what he chooses!
What if, like John’s land focuses on delivery, and Hephaestus offered to undo/Fix something… his denizen, Typheus, gave him the Choice to Return something he’d lost? What if he has to choose which one to bring back to life?! Hoo, boy, would that be “choosing the nature of his triumph”… And it could even lead to him reviving the one who ‘deserves’ it, but pairing up with the dead one and having a ghost girlfriend. Except for weird later age-appearance issues, or…
Eh, ignore me on that. It’s far-flung, random rom-speculation. :)
On to one of my last points. Something much more relevant.
Have you seen the series, Avatar: The Last Airbender?
Well, I won’t go into ALL the Breath in that series. However, there’s a very important, specific scene I’d like to share with you: the one where Guru Pathik, an excellent media example of a Sylph of Breath, teaches Aang to unlock his chakras (raw link, embedded here):
The entire 14 minutes are an excellent example of untying oneself from the more harmful ramifications of Blood, divesting oneself from worries, regret, shame, fear, and guilt in favor of detached optimism, acceptance, and enlightenment. Spiritual freedom, and the unquestionable happiness and power it brings…
With a catch. One you see with the very last chakra, at the 8:36 mark.
PATHIK: The thought chakra is located at the crown of the head. It deals with pure cosmic energy, and is blocked by earthly attachment. Meditate on what attaches you to this world. [Images of Katara appear before Aang.] Now, let all of those attachments go. Let them flow down the river, forgotten. AANG: [Coming out of his meditation.] What? Why would I let go of Katara? I…I love her! PATHIK: Learn to let her go, or you cannot let the pure cosmic energy flow in from the universe. AANG: Why would I choose cosmic energy over Katara? [Aang throws his hands up.] How could it be a bad thing that I feel an attachment to her? Three chakras ago that was a good thing! PATHIK: You must learn to let go. AANG: I’m sorry, but I can’t let go of Katara. PATHIK: Aang, to master the Avatar State, you must open all the chakras. Surrender yourself. AANG: Okay, I’ll try. PATHIK: Now think of your attachments and let them go. Let the pure cosmic energy flow. Aang sees an image of him letting Katara go, and then a bridge that will lead him to Avatar State mastery. As he is being surrounded by energy, however, he hears a shriek from Katara. He runs away from the end of the road. This cuts his connection to the Avatar State, which drops him back to reality. AANG: Katara’s in danger! I have to go! [Prepares to exit.] PATHIK: No, Aang! By choosing attachment, you have locked the chakra! If you leave now, you won’t be able to go into the Avatar State at all!
Those worldly attachments are Blood! And Aang made a choice - a Choice, if you will - not to let them go, even though (as it cuts to at the end of the video) he feels he has no option but to try again later, in an attempt to protect what he loves. A dilemma he discusses in between, in a conversation with the wise Uncle Iroh:
AANG: Well, I met with this guru who was supposed to help me master the Avatar State and control this great power, but to do it, I had to let go of someone I love. [He and Iroh stop.] And I just couldn’t. IROH: Perfection and power are overrated. I think you were very wise to choose happiness and love. AANG: [Earthbends again.] What happens if we can’t save anyone and beat Azula? Without the Avatar State, what if I’m not powerful enough? IROH: I don’t know the answer. Sometimes, life is like this dark tunnel. You can’t always see the light at the end of the tunnel, but if you just keep moving… [Aang earthbends the rocks away one last time. Iroh’s fire blows out. He smiles.] …you will come to a better place.
A fully realized Hero of Breath must also understand and appreciate Blood, and is fully within his rights to keep and care for Blood if he so wishes. Just like a hero of Blood cannot remain so mired in the chains around him that he refuses to take another step forward, to appreciate the importance of a leap into imagination and ideals.
The nature of a Hero’s triumph depends on what he chooses.
And what might John’s most important, final role in the story be?
UU: it is the day whereafter the legendary octet of mUtUal progenitoriety will come together and heal a great breach in paradox space. UU: a day delivered throUgh eighty billion years and foUr distinct Universal instances worth of Unfathomable tUrbUlence. UU: and while the emerald eye of this storm is fixed in the abyss forever UU: today yoU are poised to escape its scowl once and for all. UU: by skaias gUiding light, yoU may leave behind its tUrning arms of bright coloUrs and mayhem, and secUre peace for yoUr cosmic progeny for all dUration.
…who better to lead the heroes out of the Sun’s reach, or maybe even to allow escape from Paradox Space altogether? :)
Space and Time are its physical fabric, from which power and flexibility are derived. Heart is the reset-spanning power of the unique soul and its potential to carve the ideas it deeply desires into reality, while Mind is the effect of choice and façade, of logic and thought on how events unfold. Light is what Skaia and Doc Scratch operate on: information, perception, communication, and the carefully placed circumstances encoded into reality to benefit individuals/causes in the form of Fortune, whileVoid is the domain of the Horrorterrors, causing destruction and obscuring information from view to forestall action or tempt interest, leaving misfortune in its wake. Breath is direction, purpose and quest, the drive and freedom to fly and move toward a chosen path on reality or send others/objects on paths of their own, while Blood is grounded in the bonds, unity, and suffering that glue people together toward whatever goals they may seek to effect into reality under their combined power. Life is the energy and optimism to fuel one’s inclination and ability to influence existence, and Doom its curtailing, pessimism and the routes which lead to death and exclusion from the ability to affect that which exists - how Life’s energy may be expended and exhausted in exchange for powerful effects on reality. Hope is one’s belief in the breadth of the possibilities open to them for pursuit, for delivery into reality, while Rage is how one’s perception of them is narrowed considerably through anger and fear.
Now let’s imagine this in a more complete, visual way…
Imagine the empty fabric of possibility, dark and limitless.
Imagine hills and valleys, a complex dark geography expanding in the dark, literally growing and created. This is Space. Imagine moving your vision forward in a general direction in the ‘sky’ of this realm, perhaps side to side but always forward, more geography unfolding underneath you, unseen in the sea of black… some of it crumbling a little as you pass. This is Time.
Now, to cast aside the blackness… imagine luminous rays draping the landscape, allowing anyone to view its appearance, its grandeur, the shape of reality. This is Light. Imagine clouds interspersed between the rays, collecting and dark, obscuring the geography in places to unvisibility. Their presence ominous… but their mysteries tempting. This is Void.
Imagine now… a Spark. A colorful, small beacon floating in the sky, not bright itself but so important that the other light doesn’t really matter. This Spark is a being, an existence, someone with the power to influence reality… and it grows in brightness, flitting about slowly but gaining speed as the raw energy to paint its will on the landscape of creation increases from infancy to a powerful, conscious, yet oh so small presence. This is Life.
This Spark is absolutely unique. Other Sparks will flit into existence nearby, in a similar fashion… just as important, varying in power, but every Spark is different, and this one is no exception. It desires different things, is enticed by others, and this determines its paths… imagine a few shadowy, wispy strands swirling out in the same color as the Spark, extending forward in different directions across Time, into the future… the paths the Spark is inclined to follow. Imagine it gliding along its path as foretold by its inclination, carving everlasting light in its color behind it, tracing a permanent path through the sky and reality. This is Heart. Imagine a shadowy wisp moving down and hitting an obstruction in the landscape, twisting out into a number of equal paths… splitting in a way that forces the Spark to choose, to twist and reorient itself, the way it touches the divide, portrays itself to the landscape, to careen down one path as opposed to another. A decision point, requiring consideration of the environment beyond its innate inclinations. This is Mind.
The Spark descends into an intricate cavern, perils and complexity, and suddenly its overwhelmed by the possibilities it might find. Shadowy tendrils of perceived paths spill out forward into the twisting nooks and crannies of the cavern, a carnival of opportunities ahead of itself so tempting that it’s almost difficult to decide which to take! This is Hope. Then, the loud noise of a small, nearby cave-in frightens the Spark, the shadowy projections of its perceived options narrowing in its fear to a single, safe one, less importantly safe but more importantly what it perceives as the only option… This is Rage.
At one point, another Spark passes by, brimming with youthful energy and power but angry at the trialsome caves in which it was trapped. This other Spark decides to deal a blow to the cavern in turn… some distance away, it flares up and EXPLODES against the landscape like a burst of fire, leaving shattered rubble and its permanent light of its color as a mystic sphere of import and impact. The remainder of the spark drifts weakly out of the center of the explosion to wander the caves again, moving slower and glowing dimmer than before, never to shine as bright again after its powerful sacrifice. This is Doom.
Finally, after wandering and wandering through the caverns, a burst of wanderlust overtakes the Spark, and it projects a path that spirals up and up, straight up through the solid cavern ceiling, the beam of carved light behind it blazing through stone and matter without touching it… and the Spark soars out of the ground, farther up into the air than it’s ever been, a path determined by its desired destination regardless of obstacles. This is Breath. And down below, a small sea of other sparks are flowing across the landscape, so close and tight to the floor as to actually touch the ground in places, linking together to weave beautiful, wide ribbons of pattern across the world of existence with their shared light. The Spark comes down and joins them, shackling itself to them and strengthening their cause… This is Blood.
And that, my friends, is how reality flows and unfolds.
Here’s hoping you enjoyed this extremely long post on Breath and Blood! Below, (later, by editing this post), I’ll try to explain how all twelve classes for Breath and Blood would function, and try to give you as many examples as I can from popular media of characters who fit each role. Check back later, or watch my blog: I’ll be posting notices of any updates I make to the chart under the “Breath and Blood” tag.
— BREATH CLASSES — (TBD)
— BLOOD CLASSES — (TBD)
HOPEFULLY FINAL EDIT: I’ve gone through and fixed all the broken images for hopefully the last time. In case this post gets super fucked again, you can find a hopefully-intact zipped-up version with all the images downloaded and included correctly right here.
TheFinalWraith: Like Kanaya implied there was a price to pay for losing your dream-self
TheFinalWraith: And Hussie told Caliborn that by killing dream-Calliope he stunted his growth forever
TheFinalWraith: So it’s the same for Kanaya, Terezi, Karkat, and Gamzee
TheFinalWraith: Their dream-selves contained the other half of their soul
TheFinalWraith: And it’s lost forever
TheFinalWraith: Like I think the union of dream and real souls is a necessary step towards Ascension?
TheFinalWraith: And corpse-smooches already facilitates that union?
blastyoboots: ahh, that makes great sense
The callback to what Kanaya said makes this all quite palpable:
TT: I explained this. TT: The intent isn’t true self sacrifice. GA: First Of All Youre Underestimating The Gravity Of A Dream Death GA: Its A Pretty Serious Thing Okay GA: And Dream Selves Are Important To A Person In Ways That Arent Always Obvious
The Mituna theory still might offer a route for them to ascend, but as this indicates, the thematics might argue a different story. I still don’t know if the trolls will ascend, but my personal opinion leans slightly more against it than for it.
But then again, I’m usually a fan of the pessimistic route. Seer of Doom, and all. :)
With as little fanfare, he seized the opportunity to follow the Thief’s trail quickly before it dissipated, and destroyed their hideout in the veil.
What is Vriska on a treasure hunt to find, exactly, out in the Furthest Ring? There have been some guesses.
But more importantly, and as the largest hint of all, you have to look at the side implications. In a turn of phrase, you need to “turn the chessboard around”, and examine the motives of those who made this all take place.
The first thing you have to know is that Doc Scratch intentionally arranged Vriska’s death!
In [S] Cascade, we see Gamzee on his chat client, speaking with Doc Scratch. Gamzee tells Doc that he’s just finished doing everything Doc told him to do… shortly after Vriska was killed. This means that Doc intended it all along: He had Gamzee invite destruction through Rage in Terezi, narrowing her outlook on the possibilities available to forestall Vriska’s fight with Jack, until it was too late for her options to be anything more than killing her or allowing everyone else to die.
AG: I thought you said you would 8e 8rief???????? I’ll say one last thing. Though the magnitude of the ensuing destruction resulting directly from your actions will be neither possible or necessary for you to fathom, there nevertheless ought to be a silver lining. The only question is whether you will live long enough to see it. I’m not a gambling man. But if I was, I wouldn’t bet on it. Goodbye.
Vriska was not responsible for Jack Noir, no matter how much she intended to be: a First Guardian of some variety would have been created in the kids’ session regardless, and even if John had succeeded in prototyping the blue lady doll, Bec still intended to jump in.
In other words, the unfathomable destruction she’s meant to bring about has yet to come.
So… Doc Scratch arranged Vriska’s death intentionally, expecting specific and further action out of her. And Vriska is currently using Lord English’s helpful reality-cracks - assistance she only thinks a coincidence - to pave a path straight to an important treasure, just like Jack Noir followed her trail in the doomed example above.
VRISKA: Really, everyone’s pretty lucky I died so I could do all the dirty work on this. Let’s get real, no8ody’s 8etter prepared to take on the treasure hunting duties than I am.
Lord English is USING Vriska to lead him to something important.
But what? A weapon? An important juju, like Calliope promised to send? A ghost? A person? (EDIT: It seems like it might indeed be the jujus of Calliope and Caliborn, the Auryn amulet, which has been united for the very first time in the Alpha Session in Jake English and Jane Crocker’s hands. EDIT2: And it turns out this amulet’s abilities are associated with cheating!)
We don’t know for sure. But as others have pointed out, we at least know where it is.
VRISKA: We’ve explored ancient crypts, networks of 8urial mounds, dusty old tom8s, giant pyramids, you name it. Hints a8out the endgame are hidden all over the place.
X marks the spot!!!
The alpha session is a hideout shrouded in a protective shell of Void, imperceptible and possibly and unlocatable past a certain point without extraordinary measures. Regardless of whether the ‘Ultimate Weapon’ itself is important, whether it’s an item, a ghost, Jake English himself, or what have you… the ultimate consequence is this:
Lord English is intentionally having Vriska lead him STRAIGHT TO THE ALPHA SESSION.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
landofspaceandrainbows
Anonymous
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
